Wikipedia talk:Community portal
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This page is for the discussion/improvement of the community portal only. The community portal is semi-protected for vandalism reasons. Large changes to it should be discussed here first.
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This page is only for the discussion/improvement of the community portal. If you have general questions about how to use or edit Wikipedia, visit the Help desk. |
| Community portal sections
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 Designs and redesigns |
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| Documentation page of current experimental redesign (August 2012) (previous designs) Please draft layout changes here: |
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Contents
A Proposition[edit]
Hi, I think that it is finally time to modernize and fix the community portal once and for all. For me, the portal contains many issues and is a disgrace to what Wikipedia can be. Here are the main issues-
- Objects and texts off the page. (I dont know if this happens with everyone but it still happens with some people for sure depending on the device. This is shown in this picture-
- Old fashioned layout, colors, fonts, and icons.
- Cluttered appearance with complex navigation.
- The page is also screwed up in mobile view on my phone.
Now I am not just posting this to complain, I have actually come up with a solution! I have constructed a more modern, streamline, no-clutter version. I have included all of the same content, just in different forms and places. Here are my changes-
- I took out the cluttered, confusing Help out section and replaced it with a single button in the interact more menu. The button takes one to the WP:Job Center page that I recently revamped and brought back from inactivity. The Job Center page contains a full comprehensive list of jobs that can be done by basic editors (yet to add an admin. section) and their corresponding pages that need to be fixed. So that button takes you to a page with an even better and more complete list of tasks to complete to help out.
- I removed the Help Desk, Reference Desk, and Teahouse buttons from the interact more menu. I then replaced them with a single button that takes one to WP:Ask for help. Ask for help is a hub page kind of like the Job Center that has a list of 4 ways/places to ask for help. It not only has links to the 3 help pages that I removed the buttons for but it also explains how to ask for help on one's user page. So that means that with one button, I packed in more info. than what was in the previous three, also removing clutter.
- I changed almost all of the buttons from the interact more menu to have more modern logos.
- I put the different sections of the page into boxes to add a neat streamline background and effect while fixing the problem of content being off the page.
- I redid the Lead section to be more simple and less cluttered and more welcoming.
The proposed version is at Wikipedia:Community portal/Draft. The version in my sandbox is for sure what I am proposing as someone might mess with the one in the draft section. I can easily implement it. It works well on my phone in mobile view too. Even though I dont see much opposition, I don't want any unneccesary controversy so I am posting this here to come to consensus on this. Thanks :) Tortle (talk) 07:44, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
- I really don't feel these changes are helpful:
- Less aesthetically pleasing in my view.
- The "interact more section" for me is changed to the worse: the help desk, reference desk, and teahouse are all taken out, but these are primarily for interaction so belong there. Also no labels. While the Help:Contents page has no interaction, yet is included.
- Why take out the "help out" section? It has a list of jobs to be done, and is ideal for the portal.
- But if the consensus is for these changes I'll abide by it. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 09:22, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
- Hi, --Jules.
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- As for less aesthetically pleasing, at least it fixes the ugliness of everything sticking off the page for some.
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- The teahouse, reference desk, and help desk are all replaced with WP:Ask for help not Help:Contents like you said. Ask for help is a very simple page with a list of 4 ways to ask for help while Help:Contents has no interaction like you said.
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- As I said above, the help out section was replaced with WP:Job Center which is a page with a list of jobs, related policies for each, and links to categories containing pages to be fixed. The Job Center is overall more comprehensive and provides more of the same thing as it provides more jobs to do than the original 9 and not just in the general editing category like now. It also provides more information for new users and is easier to navigate while reducing clutter on the portal as the portal isnt necessarily the place for jobs to be laid out like that. The only downside is that with my proposed version, you have to click one more time than you would normally but it makes up for that in the extra info. provided and the reduction of clutter.
- Please consider my responses and thank you for giving your input. Nice meeting you. Tortle (talk) 15:22, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
- User:Tortle: WP:Ask for help is not equivalent to links to the the help desk, reference desk and teahouse. Why? Because interacting is two way: we also need people to help man theses particular boards. Also WP:Job Center is not equivalent to Wikipedia:Community portal/Opentask as this is a bot updated list of articles needing attention, while WP:Job Center is a fixed list of pages and category in which to find articles. Provide a link to the job center if you like but please leave Wikipedia:Community portal/Opentask alone.--Jules (Mrjulesd) 13:30, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
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- What about that User:Mrjulesd? I just solved the issues in the latest update. Tortle (talk) 15:33, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Mrjulesd:
- What about that User:Mrjulesd? I just solved the issues in the latest update. Tortle (talk) 15:33, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
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- That doesn't render properly on my system. Also, my previous comments still stand. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 10:47, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
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- Well you just had issues with opentask not being there, the links to the help and reference desks not being there, the link to the teahouse not being there. I added all of them in so please clarify what comments still stand above. Can you take a screenshot and post it so I can see how it looks on your system and try to fix the issues?--Jules Thanks Tortle (talk) 18:09, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- Looking at your source code it looks like you're misusing {{Quote box}} which is causing problems. I'm not interested in helping you further as you seem to have a strong case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. What I will say that is to make major changes to this page you need strong consensus, something you haven't achieved. I suggest you WP:DROPTHESTICK. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 18:24, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- I did in fact hear that by updating the design to include opentask and all of the help desks. I will make the quote boxes into normal boxes and by doing so, it proves that I am listening to input. And I am not just going to turn my back on a big issue to many of content flowing halfway off the page. Tortle (talk) 19:00, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- Looking at your source code it looks like you're misusing {{Quote box}} which is causing problems. I'm not interested in helping you further as you seem to have a strong case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. What I will say that is to make major changes to this page you need strong consensus, something you haven't achieved. I suggest you WP:DROPTHESTICK. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 18:24, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- Well you just had issues with opentask not being there, the links to the help and reference desks not being there, the link to the teahouse not being there. I added all of them in so please clarify what comments still stand above. Can you take a screenshot and post it so I can see how it looks on your system and try to fix the issues?--Jules Thanks Tortle (talk) 18:09, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
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Pardon me for taking this back to the left margin. I'm assuming that Wikipedia:Community portal/Draft is the page to refer to. A few things I'd like to mention:
- Content is center-aligned in an odd fashion, per the image on the right.
- Is the font size altered? It seems smaller than the default text size. Messing with the text size is not generally a great idea, for instance readers might change defaults to account for reading difficulties.
- Have you read up on the talk page archives and the discussion that took place when the portal was redesigned back in 2012? Looks like it started with Wikipedia talk:Community portal/Archive 16#Feedback on the change to this page
Apart from that, both the WMF and I have done separate studies of the effectiveness of the portal's list of open tasks. The WMF's research is on meta Research:Community portal redesign/Opentask. My research results are available as a PDF from my homepage, that paper was presented at the ACM CSCW conference earlier this year. The number of saved edits coming through the Community Portal is very small, but the portal does move traffic to some degree. Trimming down the number of categories to focus in on those users are most likely to work on (copyedit, wikify, add image, and orphan, by the looks of WMF's graph) might be beneficial. Removing the list of open tasks altogether is arguably also a valid option. Regards, Nettrom (talk) 17:31, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks so much for all of the great info Nettrom and also for letting me see what it looks like on a mac. I started off using quote boxes and when mrjulesd raised concerns, I switched to text boxes and those all had center align and the font size set already for their use somewhere else so Ill work on fixing that. I do believe that the open tasks clutter up the page and the page should be a simple hub so I think that another option would be to move the open tasks to the WP:Job Center. Thanks Tortle (talk) 18:36, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
- The changes proposed in the draft look alright for the most part, but I will admit I prefer the current version of the "Interact more" bar. To me it looks less likely to get thrown off to the side in different browsing formats than the draft version, but that's just a casual observance talking; I'm not technical enough to form a fact-steeped opinion on this. Regardless of which version of the "Interact more" bar is better suited for a range of devices, I think its current colouring is also far more cheerful and appealing than in the draft version, which strikes me as cold and lackluster. Even if the change of format is approved, can't the old colour be kept? If only there was a worthy joke about a band-aid attending the opera... (talk) 20:36, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- Hi If only there was a worthy joke about a band-aid attending the opera... and thanks for commenting and letting me know. I dont know if I mentioned it here but I plan on just getting a good draft in the grey ccolors and then figuring out what colors he community wants. Part of the issue with the interact more bar is that in its current form, it is too long for the page and sticks off so I had to condense it and remove an icon. I feel like this interact more bar is better for all users. But when you say thrown off to the side, do you mean that it is not centered on your page? Because for me, my interact more bar in the proposal version is perfectly fitting to the page without being off center or going off the page. Thanks Tortle (talk) 20:51, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, it's not being centered is what I was referring to. It's really not that big a deal in my opinion, so long as it does function better for a wider variety of devices than the current version. :) If only there was a worthy joke about a band-aid attending the opera... (talk) 21:15, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- Here, by the time you finish reading this, I should have made an edit that might fix the centering issue. If you could check the draft and reply in a minute, we can see if my edit will work. If only there was a worthy joke about a band-aid attending the opera... thanks Tortle (talk) 21:18, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- I just made it. If you looked before 21:23 then check again . Tortle (talk) 21:22, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry, I haven't been able to grab a moment to evaluate the new revision till now. Yes, I like that much better. :) If only there was a worthy joke about a band-aid attending the opera... (talk) 17:35, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, it's not being centered is what I was referring to. It's really not that big a deal in my opinion, so long as it does function better for a wider variety of devices than the current version. :) If only there was a worthy joke about a band-aid attending the opera... (talk) 21:15, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
I like to see efforts to improve things. Keep trying.
Here are some observations on the draft:
- Changing the navbar here is inappropriate, because it is included on many pages. A different design effort and discussion needs to take place for that. Besides this, the replacement navbar is in a font so large that it competes visually and contextually with the title of the page.
- The boxes are distracting. I find my eyes tracing the lines around the page rather than reading the text. Without the boxes, the design is much softer (on the eyes).
- The interact menu bar was named for and designed to link to pages where interaction takes place, or which implement interaction. You've turned it into 2 menu bars, mixing formats, which is awkward and confusing (makes one wonder "What are these links for?" "Why are they presented differently?" "Why are they a different size?" "How are the lower links related to the main row?")
- Mostly what this page needs is content, not formatting.
If you'd really like to help out with this page, consider contributing to its content. For example, the community bulletin board (especially the general announcements section) would be a great place to draw people's attention to what is going on around the community.
I hope you have found my comments helpful. The Transhumanist 09:36, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
- Also, currently the links on this page go to the old WP:PROJDIR, but the newer WP:WPDIR is a lot more up-to-date and has more relevant information.
- WP:PROJDIR = Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory
- WP:WPDIR = Wikipedia:WikiProject_directory
- I propose updating to the newer one. T.Shafee(Evo﹠Evo)talk 11:18, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
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- Greetings Tortle First of all, sorry for the lateness of my response. While I'm not a lawyer, when I see Job Center it means a place where I can find a job/work/employment. So this should NOT be used (imo).
- Going directly to the concern about icons being chopped off on the right side, that is happening because Wikipedia GUI is not a Responsive website design. Just wondering if the icon chopping is happening because of not using the official mobile version of Wikipedia which is located at http://m.wikipedia.org?
- Below is a non-icon version of the Icon-Toolbar which totally eliminates the chopping issue.
For those who like/prefer the icon toolbar, I see no reason why this has to be an either/or issue. I would recommend adding the above directly under the toolbar, and if necessary, create a double-stacked (two rows) toolbar with smaller icons. Regards, JoeHebda (talk) 02:09, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
And here's another Version 3.0 idea, with (small) icons:
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Discussion for consensus: If there are any additions or updates for above, please feel free to communicate here. Suggestions for improvement are welcome. JoeHebda (talk) 06:43, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
- Greetings @Mrjulesd, Tortle, The Transhumanist, Nettrom, Wilhelmina Will, and Evolution and evolvability:
- Just wondering about any feedback on the Version 3.0 example above? Or should I just be bold (add above under the existing icon bar) and let it all hit the fan?
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- Hi Joe, I'm glad you're here. Now I'm confident every option will be explored. I have some comments on the above design and approach...
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- Redundant elements near each other are generally not well received. Along those lines, I dislike the addition of items from the navbar at the top of the screen. (Tips, Help)
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- Note that the tip library and the help directory are not interactive, and do not fit the list's inclusion criteria.
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- And the village pump is not an interactive help department (though Village Pump Technical is). The various other village pumps are discussion and decision-making forums.
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- One thing we've noticed over the years concerning list formats, is that lists tend to grow. And grow. We tried to maintain basic topics lists, but they kept expanding to become comprehensive and had to be renamed.
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- If the interactive list grows, it will bloat the page. Keeping it from growing would take continuous maintenance and this might resemble ownership or even edit wars. People love to add to lists. Who are we to tell them they cannot?
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- The navbar is constricted by its very nature. If you turn it into a list, it will probably grow into a directory to compete with the content of the page. But the community already has directories (one of them used to reside on this page, but it was split off to become the Department directory). Links to the directories are included in the navbar at the top of the page.
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- I think we should continue looking for navbar solutions.
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- In the meantime, I've shrunk the existing navbar down, and have divided the text onto 2 lines to further reduce width, to help minimize the problem for the time being. The Transhumanist 18:43, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
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- Hi. One important thing will be to make clear what the difference between these links are, particularly teahouse vs helpdesk vs reference desk. To a new user, it's not clear which one to use. It might be worthwhile making clear the specialisms of each help page (for new editors, for experienced editors, finding references, etc). T.Shafee(Evo﹠Evo)talk 03:52, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
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- In my opinion, User:Tortle, it looks modern, simple, yet effective. Easier for newcomers to use if you ask me, and let me tell you, that's what's important- making Wikipedia a welcome place for newcomers.
Cheers, --The Haze Master (talk) 00:10, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- Looks good and more pleasing then ever before to me!--Tomandjerry211 (alt) (talk) 20:40, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Proposal: double stack icon bar[edit]
Example below:JoeHebda (talk) 15:45, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
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Not done: please establish a 
