Talk:Quebec

"Québécois" [sic]

That's the general term in French.
In English, it's Quebecker, or, if you can't spell properly, Quebecer.
Please correct. Thanks. 99.247.1.157 (talk) 23:25, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Québécois refers to an ethnic group. Quebecer/Quebecker refers to anyone from Quebec, whether they're Acadian, Anglophone, allophone, Québécois, or any other background. OttawaAC (talk) 03:16, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

No, I've seen Québécois used as a general term for any inhabitant of Quebec as well. Never in English, but in French, yes. 70.30.198.176 (talk) 14:32, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

This is the English Wikipedia, though — so our content on here is governed by the way the word is used in English, not the way it's used in French. We can acknowledge that the French context of the word differs, as a point of information, but we can't simply use the word in the French manner as if English usage didn't differ. Bearcat (talk) 18:56, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

The official term for someone living in Quebec in English and French languages is Québécois. PrancingSkeleton (talk) 18:20, 24 October 2015 (EDT)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2015

Quebec was not founded by Jacques Cartier, it was founded by Neil Armstrong.Howesb (talk) 15:29, 11 January 2015 (UTC) Howesb (talk) 15:29, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

You sure about that? Not done. The Interior (Talk) 15:39, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 February 2015

Under demonym, I wanted to change 'Québecois' to 'Quebecois(e)', reflecting both the masculine and feminine. 199.19.253.57 (talk) 23:12, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Not done for now: You want to ditch the accent and add an explicit (e) on the end because why? Do you have any reliable source to back up that these changes are proper? Thank you. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 23:00, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

There are two accents, so the request should read: Québécois(e). It's a valid request, the equivalent in English would be akin to writing "he/she" instead of "he". See Québécois (word) for more. Vrac (talk) 23:22, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually, Québécois, Québecois, and Quebecois are all correct ENGLISH spellings of the word, as this is the ENGLISH Wikipedia we follow ENGLISH spelling and grammar.--NotWillyWonka (talk) 04:17, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Education

i came to this article to check on the status of catholic education being supported by the state. imagine my surprise in discovering that, unlike every other article i have checked on a political subdivision, this article makes no mention of the subject. wtf? Toyokuni3 (talk) 21:51, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Mother tongue in Quebec

The map for "Mother tongue in Quebec" only shows the color key after being clicked on. I suggest that it show the language-color key in the main article. {If I knew how, I would have done the edit myself; if I were Canadian myself, I would have spelled the word C-O-L-O-U-R. ;-)} ChinaChuck (talk) 16:22, 8 April 2015 (UTC)ChinaChuck, 8 April 2015

Requested move 30 May 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. EdJohnston (talk) 03:35, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

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Quebec → Québec – The formal name of this place is Québec, not Quebec, see [1] and [2] RekishiEJ (talk) 09:28, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Oppose. We use English on the English-language Wikipedia. [3], [4], [5], [6], etc. Zarcadia (talk) 12:37, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

*Oppose. The websites the nominator has linked to are not authoritative, at least not if we go by WP:WIAN. For authoritative British and American spelling, see here and here. Additon: I just noticed the bung above declaring this article to be in "Canadian English." The most official Canadian source is Natural Resources Canada, which operates a geographic names server. Too hip to be cool (talk) 03:07, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Strike above per c-banned user Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kauffner In ictu oculi (talk) 22:47, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Am tempted to support as per UNESCO : Historic District of Old Québec and Québec City amongst others. I do not think that an encyclopedia should be governed by newspaper headlinese while recognising that many still use "Quebec". There is a prevalence of using Quebec but I have to wonder about the extent that this may be down to the laziness of editors not being bothered to present the accented "é". GregKaye 13:28, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Oppose as per trackratte GregKaye 15:10, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:UE and WP:COMMONNAME. Calidum T|C 13:58, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose – Anglophones cannot type diacritics and should not have to, as they are not used in English. This is the English Wikipedia. RGloucester — ☎ 15:03, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

• What? What one's first/primary language is has no bearing on one's ability to type diacritics, and yes, diacritics are used in English. Whether an accent should be included in this case is a more specific question, and I would be inclined to answer no - but let's not use overbroad arguments to support that. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:17, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment The official name in English for the province is Quebec according to the Canadian government, whereas the official name of the city is Québec. Vrac (talk) 17:31, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose the nominator has provided no evidence that the province is best known known as Québec by English language speakers whereas the people opposing the move have provided evidence to the contrary form the government of Canada.--67.68.29.99 (talk) 18:27, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support. While I understand I am in the minority, having Québec the province match Québec the city does make sense. ONR (talk) 19:02, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

It already does match since the city is listed as Quebec City on Wikipedia.--67.68.29.99 (talk) 21:37, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

If anything were to be moved, a better case could be made to move the article Quebec City to City of Québec and redirect, instead of the opposite which is currently in place. According to the same source, Quebec City is unofficial and "informal". But it would be a bit nitpicky, I don't see any problem with leaving them the way they are. I just added "City of Québec" to the list of aliases in the Quebec City article. Vrac (talk) 22:29, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Quebec City, with or without the diacritic, is by far the most common name in English compared to City of Québec, again with or without the diacritic. I'm reluctant to believe "City of Québec" is the official English name when the official French name is "Ville de Québec" and the official translation of "ville" is "town". I'd need provincial legislation, or municipal legislation, to confirm the English translation in the above link is correct. In any event, it really is moot as no city articles on WP as far as I know (in North America anyway) use the "Status of Given Name" convention. Hwy43 (talk) 01:10, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Ville is translated as City by the Office de la langue francais' toponymie commission, officially, for many cities. -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 03:54, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

65.94.43.89, is there a link you can provide to that? I've been assuming Statistics Canada's approach to the translation was correct. See how town = ville and apparently city = cité here. There is another editor here that is adamant that ville translates to town and is hostile towards others that think otherwise. To me, it is reasonable that ville could translate to city in the French Canadian context, but I've been unable to beat this drum without evidence. Any link you could provide would be helpful in that. Cheers, Hwy43 (talk) 05:50, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

"Ville" can be translated to city, absolutely — but it can also be translated to town. The problem is that there's no particular standard for determining which way to translate it in any individual case — while obviously nobody would seriously propose that we refer to Montreal or Quebec City or Trois-Rivières or Gatineau as towns, there are a lot of smaller villes for which it would be a constant and unresolvable debate which way to turn. Bearcat (talk) 00:08, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

@Bearcat: see the current state of List of municipalities in Quebec and the first thread on its talk page. As the translation could be either (i.e. town or city), it appears we agree it is a tad absurd to translate to "town" for Montréal, but that is exactly what has happened. Likewise it might also be absurd to translate to "city" for L'Île Dorval on that list. As there is a massive grey area in between, would it be appropriate to use "ville" rather than the two possible translations in that list so that we are not ORing which ones are "cities" versus which ones are "towns"? As you can see, this is why I am asking the IP editor to provide a link or anything else to provide direction on how to approach that list. Hwy43 (talk) 06:35, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per Vrac's discovery. Identification therein that the English spelling is Quebec (without the diacritic) is evidently unambiguous. Hwy43 (talk) 19:16, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Strong oppose Canadian English acceptably does not include the accent in English preferentially -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 03:52, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
• Question - What do full font British English books do? Canadian English isn't necessarily representative of English globally when related to French speaking Canada because there is a local tradition of creating "Canadian English names" which is just accent-stripping. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:46, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
  • British English is not relevant. Canada is not part of Britain, and the nearest neighbouring English is American English, not British English. BrEng fails MOS:TIES; this is not the British Wikipedia. Canada is no longer a British Colony, and we should not revert to that situation. -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 07:18, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

But in this context, where there is according to WP:RS a certain feeling about French Canadian names among some non-French Canadians, a British/Irish/EU/Indian English is far enough away to be more neutral. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:19, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Quebec is home to 600,000 native English-speaking Canadians (a larger population than that of PEI, NL, or any of the Territories). No ENGVAR besides CanEng should even enter the conversation. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 10:50, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

I'll make sure to peruse the New York Times next time the whole Derry/Londonderry debacle comes up again. Red Slash 03:37, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose, since the official spelling in English is without the diacritic, per Vrac's evidence. If it were not, then, yes, we'd use the diacritic, just as we do on thousands of articles with diacritics in the title. PS: I must have covered this ten dozen times in various RMs and other discussions. COMMONNAME applies to what the common name is in English (e.g. Quebec, vs. Province of Quebec vs. Quebec Province, whether with or without a diacritic), not how it is styled. Diacritics are a matter of style, as defined on Wikipedia, and determined by consulting reliable sources on the topic in question. Note that WP:AT and the naming conventions guidelines defer to MOS on style matters. Whether to use the diacritic is not at all a matter of COMMONNAME analysis, or virtually no article on WP would have a diacritic in it's title; maybe Nestlé.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:17, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
• Neutral—of course we use diacritics in English (naïve, Pokémon). "Québec" with a diacritic is not uncommon in English, but sans diacritic is far more common. We have to remember that (a) it is commonly spelt without a diacritic by the 600,000 native English speakers who call the province home; and (b) it is pronounced differently in English than it is in French, so the diacritic doesn't serve the function in English that it does in French (ditto Montréal). Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 10:44, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. No new move reason since all the previous discussions (see below). -- P 1 9 9  ✉ 12:53, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. The question of whether "Quebec" or "Québec" is the official name in English is actually completely irrelevant to the matter — Wikipedia does not rest on officialism for the sake of officialism. Rather, per WP:UE we use whatever form of a name is most likely to be recognized as the usual English name in actual real-world usage. There are certainly some cases (the textbook example is Parti Québécois) where standard English usage is to simply retain the original French form without translating or stripping the accent — but the province is generally spelled in English without the accent, and the city is generally known in English as Quebec City (also without the accent). Certainly there are exceptions where the accent is used in English in both names, but those are generally federal or provincial government sources which have their own internal style rules requiring them to rest on the official form — the accents aren't commonly used in English by anybody not bound by government officialese. Per WP:COMMONNAME, we default to the form most commonly seen in actual English usage — we can use the official form in the original language when that form is what's most commonly seen in English, as it is with the PQ and the Bloc Québécois, and per WP:CANFRENCH we also err on the side of "original French" in cases where there could be a dispute between multiple "common" English forms (e.g. Trois-Rivières vs. "Trois-Rivieres" vs. "Trois Rivières" vs. "Trois Rivieres" vs. "Three Rivers"), but the basic rule is that in a clean X vs. Y choice common trumps official rather than vice versa. Bearcat (talk) 23:41, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. as per MOS:CAFR --Moxy (talk) 13:07, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

As you can see here the province is spelt "Quebec" on the map, whereas the city is spelt "Québec". Once again, you can see this here, where the only Canadian English spelling for the city is "Québec" According to the Government of Canada, "Quebec, the province, does not take an accent. Québec, the city, does. Montréal always has an accent". In Canadian English, the city and the province are distinguished by its having an accent or not. This difference cannot be transmitted when spoken however, which is why in informal writing or when speaking Canadians often use "Quebec City", however, when written the city should always simply be "Québec". If anything, this page move request should apply to the city wikipage, and not the province page, as the province is clearly "Quebec" in Canadian English. trackratte (talk) 14:52, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Here I see that the province page (http://www.gouv.qc.ca/EN/Pages/accueil.aspx) has it with the accent. It should be moved, if that is how it is spelled locally, and officially, as it apparently is. In ictu oculi's insistence on british google books, and british english being the standard (as opposed to Canadian English in this instance) doesn't hold bearing in this case, in my opinion. What on Earth does british english have to do with a Canadian topic? ~~ipuser 90.198.209.24 (talk) 19:41, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

As Canadian French (Quebecois) is the only official language of the province, they always spell the name of the province in French whether it's in an English context or not. In English it doesn't take an accent, but the city always does. trackratte (talk) 23:23, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Not to mention I don't think the Quebec government should get the final say of how to spell the article's title since this is the English Wikipedia not the Quebec Wikipedia. Due to that I don't see any reason that we need to use local names. Wikipedia also is not forced to use official names otherwise United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland or Democratic People's Republic of Korea would have to be used. Granted those examples are not spelling issues but the main point is we are allowed to use names that are not official. Also. a shown earlier, the federal government does not use the proposed spelling which strongly indicates that Québec is not the name used by most English language speakers which I see as the main reason that the page should not be moved.--67.68.29.99 (talk) 01:48, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

See previous discussions on Quebec vs Québec here, here, here, here, and here. Next time someone proposes this move, let them first read these previous discussions. -- P 1 9 9  ✉ 12:53, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Given all the failed previous attempts and the overwhelming opposition, perhaps consideration should be given to withdrawing this RM. Hwy43 (talk) 06:40, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Maybe we should keep it open, there is a similar discussion going on over at Spanish_treasure_fleet. ~ipuser 90.198.209.24 (talk) 00:39, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.