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Richard Clement / Reuters
Demonstrators march past the White House during a rally against the Keystone XL pipeline in Washington, February 17, 2013. REUTERS/Richard Clement
Thousands of protesters took to the National Mall on Sunday for a climate rally that organizers touted as the largest of its kind in U.S. history. The group’s top priority was to urge President Barack Obama to reject the proposed Keystone XL pipeline that would carry oil sands from Canada through the United States.
“When you are in a hole stop digging. Above all, stop the keystone pipeline. The president can do that with the stroke of his pen,” said Bill McKibben, founder of the environmental activist group 350.org.
Although the crowd count could not be independently confirmed, organizers estimated nearly 40,000 people from across the country descended on the nation’s capital to gather near the Washington Monument and then march to the White House for the “Forward on Climate” rally.
Organizers, including the Sierra Club, used the slogan “Forward,” the same one Obama used during his 2012 reelection campaign, to send a message to the White House to follow through on promises to address climate change. The president had addressed the issue throughout his campaign and then again during last Tuesday’s State of the Union.
Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse, D–R.I., said part of the reason for the rally was to “get the fellow in the White House to follow up on the wonderful things he’s said in speeches recently and put a really strong regulatory regime in.”
Obama initially rejected the Keystone XL pipeline in January 2012, saying he wanted more time for an environmental review. A final decision is expected soon. The State Department, under the new leadership of Sec. John Kerry, is currently reviewing the permit application for the pipeline, and White House officials have delayed comment on the president's thinking until after the review is complete.
Pressure has mounted since last month when Republican Nebraska Gov. Dave Heineman sent a letter to the president informing him he now supported a new route the pipeline would take through his state. The Republican governor originially opposed Keystone over concerns that it would disrupt environmentally sensitive areas of his state.
Adding to that pressure is Canada's support of the pipeline that would carry oil from Alberta's oil sands projects to refineries in the Gulf Coast. If the U.S. decides not allow construction, Canada may need to look elsewhere for new energy markets, and the damage could be done to the relationship between the two countries.
For more than a year, Republicans in Congress have attacked Obama for what they view as delaying the project. Conservative argue the 1,000-plus-mile pipeline will provide the U.S. with a reliable energy source and create jobs during a period of slow economic recovery.
Thousands gathered in Washington, D.C. to demand action from President Obama on climate change. NBC's Lester Holt reports.
But those gathered at the rally today say the pipeline will release more carbon, further heating the Earth and causing more devastating events like droughts and extreme storms.
Other issues the rally focused on were preventing drilling in the Arctic and regulating smokestacks and refineries.
“It’s inspiring. This is the largest rally on climate change in U.S. history,” said Michael Brune, executive director of the Sierra Club. “People have come from almost all over the country, from every state, to really send a strong message to the president that we have his back every time he stands forward on climate change and clean energy, and we want him to use his full executive authority to fight this throughout his whole term.”
And though the protesters took their march to the White House, their message fell on deaf ears, at least for today. President Obama on Sunday was in Florida, where he played golf with Tiger Woods.
Leave a Comment:
Keystone Pipeline XL will be an environmental catastrophe.
And it will only create a handful of temporary jobs.
And bring a dangerous high-pressure oil pipeline through many midwest communities that clearly do not want it.
And benefit who? Canadians plus some very wealthy investors and that's it.
KILL KEYSTONE XL PIPELINE !!
.
I wonder how many of the people bound to comment on this article, no doubt with great vehemence, actually understand both the economic impact and the environmental issues at stake? My guess is very, very few, and yet they will be angry and insulting to anyone who doesn't agree with them.
Boulevard of broken dreams. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=317slXoNAp8
I don't want to pay more for gas. No to the pipeline! - Denver
1776
Name one environmental catastrophe involving a US oil pipeline that caused damaged to the environment.
Let me help, little ones occur, not big ones.
In all the years of the Alaskan Oil Pipeline, it suffered small leaks that were just a few thousand gallons because of the monitoring system. That, despite the fact that the pipeline travels through an earthquake zone and had experienced several earthquakes. Leaks have been traced to sabotage, maintenance failures, and gunshot holes.
Seeing that the pipeline has shipped over 16 Billion BARRELS of oil and experienced just a few thousand GALLONS of oil lost (1 barrel - 42 Gallons), the pipeline is far safer than shipping oil in oil tankers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pipeline_accidents_in_the_United_States_in_the_21st_century
Two Years Later, Kalamazoo River Oil Pipeline Spill Is Nation's Costliest
For one.
This is not a US pipeline, it is Canadian. Let me tell you about a Canadian pipeline in my home state of Michigan. It developed a leak of thousands of gallons into a tributary of the Kalamazoo River, which leads to Lake Michigan. Fortunately the slick was stopped before that happened. To this day there is still sludge in the river bottom. This dirty oil is to be piped into Texas, refined, and sold to foreign markets. Don't expect to see gas prices lowered if this goes through. No amount of spilled oil is acceptable. Let Canada build their own refineries and they can ship it themseves.
Here is an interesting scenario.
Someone comes up with free energy and gives it free to the world. Oil markets tumble. Governments in the middle east go broke due to lack of revenue. The Us government because it's revenue is based on the petro dollar crashes and the government collapses under its debt that it can't pay back. Along with many others around the world.
In a couple of years over 2 billion people are out of work due to that lack of need for oil from the lowly gas station attendant to the oil platform worker to the trader, to the companies themselves. To every one that even remotely derives their income from the petroleum industry.
Because all these people are now out of work and the money flow has stopped, crime and starvation is rampant as humans turn on one another.
After the world has dropped a few billion people the earth recovers. And after time humanity changes its course and finds a new way to live in harmony with earth.
After all that, my question is this. Should this be the proper path for humanity? And if not, what would be the proper moral course of action?
I find both sides of this argument lacking in forethought. Those that want the pipeline are convinced that petroleum is the answer out of greed and necessity willing to sacrifice the earth for the sake of so called progress. And those that are earth huggers are totally unaware of the repercussions of a world that is not based on oil. One way, people are saved and the earth is destroyed, and the other, the earth is saved and most of humanity is destroyed. As I see it, there really is no middle ground. It is just the way it will be.
This IS the dirtiest oil (oil?) on the planet.....
http://beforeitsnews.com/environment/2013/01/how-to-make-gasoline-from-tar-sands-in-six-simple-steps-2459644.html
DB Akron
I give you a "C" for effort, but as was stated above the Kalamazoo Tar Sand leak was a few thousand gallons and over two years later not cleaned up and no end in site for clean up. If this had been a standard crude oil leak clean up would be completed. If Canada wants to ship its oil to the Gulf to sell they should at least refine it to a safer level. Better yet instead of shipping it to the Gulf, refine it and sell the finished product to our upper mid west. Canada has ports on both coasts that can handle this hazardous oil, why should the people of the mid west take the risk of a big spill for none of the gain?
KING PUTT
I am not even remotely thinking that I am smarter, just maybe aware of logistics. I believe most of the oil sands are on the east side of the rockies which is a roadblock and shipping it to the east when there are really no refineries there is silly. I think it might have to do with the oil companies being too cheap to build a refinery in Canada when their partners in the venture already have them in Texas. And even if they did build their own refineries, they would still be subject to the shipping constraint.
Personally, They are pulling so much oil out of ND that it warrants a refinery and that they should build a refinery there and it would solve this whole debate.
I don't do drugs? Maybe that is my problem?
TransCanada says in their website that they want to build "Keystone XL, the 1897-km (1179-mile) pipeline from Hardisty, Alberta to Cushing, OK."
Now, here's something to think about: Why don't they run the pipeline from Hardisty, Alberta to Vancouver, British Columbia, a distance of about 600 miles, as the crow flies?
Oh, Canadian Rockies in the way? Then divert to Calgary and take a lower route west. Or go east to Hudson Bay and then tanker it out, a distance of about 800 miles.
Canada could keep all those wonderful jobs to itself and have its own pipeline in its own country!
Kinda makes you wonder just what the hell is up with this whole Keystone XL boondoggle and why TransCanada and the Republican party are so eager to foist their pipeline off on us, doesn't it?
Keystone's just another fail amongst a series of failures repeated by this administration of spend spend spend
Obama will never approve anything that will benefit America.
It has nothing to do with the climate or the environment, this is just a "front" for the Obama administration and the people protesting.
This will never be approved under the Obama regime.
To either side of the issue, take a pill and chill out. This product is being pumped and sold as we speak. Most now is transported by rail. Over past 2 years much has been learned how to more safely send by pipe system and god forbid, how to clean up the mess.
I believe the line should be built but using our standards and not those of Canada. Houston area refineries are a few locations in the world that have the equipment, skills and knowledge how to refine it and dispose of residue safely. God forbid this stuff ever gets to china for refining. Look at the air pollution alone in its capital. They will do the cheapest way possible and I do believe the residue will end up in the oceans. Look at their history and try to prove me wrong.
Yes, many jobs created will be temporary. But then, what construction job is permanant? It will make permanant jobs of line safety and pumping, jobs in texas refining, storing, and shipping.
Yep, these "people" would like to see our Congressional procedures thrown out the window along with the Constitution.
Wait a minute....Mr. Obama said in the SOTU speech that he was GOING TO USE Executive Orders and his Progressive Cabinet members to get his REGULATIONS and AGENDA through....."My way or the highway". If Congressional procedures don't work.....then REGULATE IT.
Wonder how much it cost to "bus" these protesters in to the mall. Maybe someone should ask Mr. Trumpka. Probably not as much as flying Mr. Obama to Florida or Mrs. Obama to Aspen.
Has the American Voter figured out it matters not who is holding office, YOU WILL BE LIED TO!
Obama - Bush = Same!
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/02/obamas-broken-deficit-promise/
The Human Being is but a cancer on spaceship earth.
It matters not who is President or who controls Congress, the real power in the US lies with creating jobs and the money people = Defense and Oil.
You all do realize who is the number one user of Oil in the world, the US Military Complex!
The US will continue to develop and mine the resources of the world until there are no resources, then, if any humans are left, move on to "alternative energy", smaller cars, mass transit.
We as a people, know and have the answers, it is just, we, as a society, based on greed and immediate gratification, refuse to change.
Tic Toc goes the clock! The future is coming quicker than most realize!
Wish I could have been there with them.
Why in the hell should Americans and American soil take on Canadian risk, on a product that will not even be used in the U.S.?
I don't want the pipeline on my country's soil.
I read this from the start. They first said it will create hundreds of thousands of jobs, then later on reduce it by 90% estimate. That's a big LIE from the start.
Then the company itself said NONE OF THE OIL will be sell in the US.
Funny thing is so many people want to build it here. When the disaster struck or spill occurs, WHO WILL FOOT THE BILLS? I can tell you, it's US TAX PAYERS.
Those who support it, when clean up happen, I want you take every freaking money out of your bank accounts if that happens. You can take the benefit from this pipeline, but I am sure you will hate to see your debts go up when something goes wrong.
They can't build refineries in Canada and ship the oil east to the Atlantic coast because Canada has laws against the kind of pollution it would cause and so it has to be shipped to Texas.
I understand why they want to ship this stuff to Texas; it already has the refinery capacity to process it and new refineries in Canada, if they could build them, would cost Billions of dollars and take years to complete.
Akron, yea the leak was stopped. And the restoration, for 2.5 miles of wetland/stream damage came in at a whopping 800 MILLION dollars and counting. The EPA will show up in Kazoo this summer and assess the damage once again. There are a couple of troublesome spots and the price tag is likely to rise.
Is 1 BILLION dollars spent on 2.5 miles of oil damaged environment worth it to you?
When is too much going to be too much?
STOP KEYSTONE NOW.
That is and should remain Canada's problem.
The only ones benefiting from this disaster are Keystone, and of course the politicians.
These pickets or rally are nut! A transport line from Canada to the gulf refineries, will provide thousands of jobs, large new refinery upgrades, tax dollars to Washington, tax revenue to states, stabilization of oil rices in the USA.
All for about 100 ftwide right away to install the lines.
Extremely crazy protest!
One way or another, the Canadian oil will get to the far east. We can benefit, or let someone else benefit.
With gas prices over $4/gal now and stil low usage time, summer will be just great. Especially after the WH insists on increased taxation, especially on the oil industry.
So I guess all these hypocrites walked to DC - LMAO! These "environmentalists" are a joke - driving around in their SUV's, using their cell phones, using their computers, watching their tv's, heating their homes, cooling their homes, wearing their clothes, eating their food - all with help from fossil fuels. What pathetic jokes they are!! The whole "not in my backyard" bullsh*t!
Debi, me too. Short term American jobs with all of the benefit going to Canada and big oil. The risk is great if all of the oil were to be used in the United States to lower our energy costs and give a boost to our economy. To shoulder all of that risk for little of nothing is a fool's game. Vegas offers better odds at the blackjack table.
Any protesters who drove or rode in a gasoline powered vehicle to get to the protest are hypocrites with absolutely no credibility.
@RAW-316448
Except it was a BIG LIE from the start, the amount of jobs we will get are but fraction of initial estimate.
When leak occur, it will cost BILLIONS to clean up. Basic math would tell you that the amount jobs and such we will get is pale in comparison to the damage we will pay later on.
RAW:
Would you like to put your money where your mouth is?
I bet the same people who are protesting wouldn't have a clue and scream if they had to live off the grid.
Sooner we can have an EMP or Solar hit, the reality these people will be faced with and see what living is really like.
It is astonishingly clear, from reading many of the comments in this discussion thread, that many of you are entirely unaware of what the pipeline will carry (diluted bitumen or "dil-bit"), from where it will originate, which American States and land areas the pipeline will impact, where the pipeline will terminate or even where the products carried by that pipeline will end up!
How can people be so strongly in favor of something which they so clearly know little or nothing about?
How can people be so insulting toward others who disagree with their strong, but uninformed advocacy?
This is what our country has become, divided along partisan party lines ... where many no longer even bother to inform themselves about the substance of what they are told by their party affiliation that they should support, and what they should oppose.
How can we be a world leader, if we don't even take the time to learn simple facts about issues before we decide if we are in favor, or oppose?
"American Exceptional-ism" you say? Yeah, right. We are exceptionally ignorant, and becoming more so by the day.
PS. 'leftisfascist', you should really take a few minutes and re-read your own comments on these discussion threads. And then, if you are actually not just the ill-mannered 12-year-old, that you appear to be, you should take a long moment for personal introspection, because you are making a complete fool of yourself, here.
Why should people that live there be put at risk, they don't gain nothing, We all know no matter what the price of GAS will always go up only a fool don't understand that. Any little thing happens like a fly might fart and the GAS price will go up.
Someone has to do something and Obama is going to do it. Can't wait on Congress and their kick the can method to get things done. It is funny that the reason he has to use executive orders is because the Republicans are being obstructionist. They say no to everything he tries to do even if it benefits the Republicans. Then when he exhausts all avenues through congress and decides to break the gridlock that is the Republican House, then he is seen as subverting the Congress and Constitution. IDO, you make me laugh.
No one is saying gasoline is not a necessity as our economy currently functions.
What we are saying is that we do not want an environmentally risky, foreign pipeline running through our country in which we have little benefit or return.
Please, get with the program.
King,
There is no mechanical reason why they are doing it. Port Arther, where it would be shipped out from to the buyer, is a duty free port. Tar sands oil is also much more costly to refine. It takes at least twice as much energy and water and produces a fuel that is very rich in carbon and so burns dirty. It will not lower cost of gas, especially not here; if anything it will increase the price to pay for the extra money spent to refine it.
And where will the obvious huge amount of waste from this, the dirtiest of oil, be stored? Texas? Canada? WHERE?
How many cars were on the road when the ice age ended?
I see a lot of posters on both sides, complaining about the other side. The fact remains that we are currently a petro based economy, both domestically and globally. Without petroleum, the entire world, as we currently know it, would cease. I want to make sure that you all understood my last statement. The world would cease. Imagine, if you will, you wake up and it's 25dF outside, but not heat. "Well, I have an electric heating system!" Doesn't matter. What exactly do you think generates this magic electricity? Now, when it's time to go to work, and there's no gas. "Well, I have a hybrid vehicle!", you say. Again, how do you think that electricity gets to your home? It's conveyed by miles and miles of copper wired, refined in a copper refinery, powered by petroleum based products. So unless you have a vehicle that runs on magic, you're screwed.
There is absolutely no doubt that refining crude oil, which is nasty, stinky and slimy, into something that we can use in our: automobiles, buses, airplanes, trucks, motorcycles, etc., is a dangerous, and sometimes messy business. However, we do have the EPA that levies millions of dollars of taxes against a variety of refiners who do not follow proceedure, and have an incident that could cost a few dollars, up to lives and property lost. The refining business here in the U.S.A. has been getting better, and cleaner each and every year since the late 70's. And these "tar sands" aren't any more costly to refine than any of the "biofuels" currently being pushed by the EPA. In fact, I'd say the "tar sands" are LESS costly to produce than ethanol, which raises the price of both corn, and gasoline. I see many ask, "why send it to Texas?", answer: because Texas already has the refineries that have the capabilities to refine this "tar sand" into a usable product. And no just in Texas, but also in Mr. Obama's home state, Illinios, where there is a very large refinery (Wood River) that is capable of refining this mess into a usable product. And now, get this, the waste from the "tar sands" is also refined into a usable product called "coke", which burns clean in many power plants, thus providing electricity. I find it mildy amusing that everyone seems to be an "expert" (on both sides), and castigates the other side for their lunacy, but the fact remains that in order to fulfil the Department of Energies original intent (less dependence on foreign oil), and truly have thousands of "shovel ready jobs", this pipeline needs to not be held as hostage in exchange for carbon based credits. Because if WE don't build it, these natural resources will be shipped to China, and any pollution that would be mitigated here in the U.S., will be nullified by the complete lack of environmental oversight by the Chinese, AND the Chinese absolutely will not even take the "carbon based credits" into consideration. So, in closing, for all of your uberenvironmental lunatics, we don't make vehicles that run on unicorn poop, nor do the Chinese, so before you start wailing "Stop Keysone Now", bear in mind that every aspect of OUR lives is based in petroleum, or petroleum based products (like the computer you use to grip about everything under the sun...). And also, before you start wailing about "alternative energy", bear in mind that we are at least two decades away from having anything close to a workable solution.
NPCDan:
While exalting the glories of the pipeline, you fail to mention the little problem of eminent domain being used against the citizens of this country for an unintended purpose; taking property from American citizens and giving it to a foreign, private corporation. Do the property rights of Americans no longer matter?
And why do you continue this propaganda crap about "our dependency on foreign oil"?
"Just as the average price for gas is set to hit $4 a gallon this week, the U.S. Energy Information Administration reports February was the third month out of four that the U.S. -- the world's most energy-hungry nation -- actually exported more oil that it imported.
Despite the notion that the U.S. is currently hugely reliant on foreign oil, the country sold 34,000 more barrels of petroleum products a day than it imported in November 2010. And, in both December and February, the U.S. sold 54,000 more barrels a day. Net imports have not been negative for nearly two decades."
You sound like a government shill.
Debi-1314897
You do realize that there are pipelines that are under the ground that have been there for decades, right? Mine has 2 14" natural gas pipes under it that have been there for forty years. People tend to forget that it was these things that built this nation. Eminent Domain is what built our freeway system, do you want that to go away? I am not necessarily for this pipeline, but at least I am not in denial about what made this country what it is.
john:
Eminent domain is only supposed to be used if it benefits the public's interest, not private corporate's interests. Natural gas pipes and freeways are used for the American public's benefit; not a Canadian private corporation.
It is sad and shameful to hear Americans so willing to just roll over and give away their rights. Giving away rights is NOT what made this country.
Debi-1314897
I agree that we should not be doing this for a company in Canada.
The gas lines under my property are owned by a private company, not the people. I am not willing to give up my rights, I am simply pointing out what has built this country that some seem to be in denial about. And eminent Domain is what made our infrastructure possible. Not that I agree with it being used, it is a major part of why we have said infrastructure.
And I don't believe it would be considered eminent domain if the property owners are paid for their land or the use of it.
Maybe this could be of help to you: The definition of eminent domain:
governmental power to appropriate private property: the power of a government to take private property for public use, usually with compensation paid to the owner.
It doesn't matter if it will be privately or publicly owned, so long as it is only taken for public use. Your gas lines and the freeways are being used by the public. Keystone is not.
Whether they are compensated or not, no citizen should have to give up his property to a private corporation if it is not for public use.
Until people educate themselves about their rights, we will continue to be taken advantage of by both our own government and private enterprise.
Debi-1314897
The gas lines under my property are being used for private use as in they use the natural gas flowing through them and sell it to me.
Sorry, but you believing that you should have a say over what these property owners do with their property is just as bad. In a way you are stating that their property rights are not theirs but are the publics. In essence, you are stating that the public has eminent domain over how you can "not" use your property. You are basically taking away their rights so I don't think you should be talking about education about rights.
@"debi", you said, "Do the property rights of Americans no longer matter?" Maybe you should ask some of the Natives that were here long before any of you and yours were. Now I have to point something out to you. You must have CRUDE OIL to refine into finished products. When you state, "the country sold 34,000 more barrels of petroleum products a day than it imported in November 2010. And, in both December and February, the U.S. sold 54,000 more barrels a day. Net imports have not been negative for nearly two decades." You do realize that the petroleum products sold were REFINED products, and not the CRUDE OIL needed to create these "34,000 more barrels...". You logic is flawed, or perhaps you just don't understand "supply and demand".
And for your "propaganda crap", the United States IMPORTS more crude oil than we produce. As a matter of fact, the Department of Energy was obstensively created to DECREASE our need for foreign crude, but according to the numbers (1975 - 35.8% thru 2009-56.1%), they have failed miserably. You people act like gasoline magically percolates up to the gas pumps, and truly have no idea of what it takes to keep out economy running smoothy. So, by all means, keep spewing your idiocy, as that you make the argument of a 12 year old. And here's the link in case you think I'm lying.
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/v38_1_05/article04.shtml
john:
I didn't invent the eminent domain law, nor do I agree with the way it is sometimes abused.
The private gas line under your property was necessary for the public's (you, your neighbors) good. That is the intended purpose of eminent domain. Your neighbor should not be without gas (or water, or electricity) if you choose not to let the infrastructure to be built because it crosses your land.
NPCDan:
The way it works Dan, he who holds the gold and silver make the rules, and unfortunately for the Natives, that changed many years ago. Lest you've forgotten, the American citizens still hold the purse strings.
To make this clear, the gas lines under my property are not the ones that supply gas to my street, they are ones that supply gas to the distribution center and are 14 inches in diameter. However, you are right and that is what I was referring to that they are for common good.
And since the gas lines under my property are privately owned, and are for profit, and are for the common good as you stated, I think you have made the case against yourself that the Keystone pipeline, which would be privately owned and for profit, is for the common good of humanity also. You can't justify one and not the other.
The interesting fact is that a pipeline is going to be built. All Obama in all of his glorious power gets to decide is if it's in the US or Canada. The Canadians have already said they'll build it out to the West Coast and ship it from there.
How is it good for our humanity? The product is being shipped out of a U.S. port, bound for other countries. If that were the case, any private corporation could take away private land and say "it's for the good of humanity" because it creates jobs, or it creates taxes. Those are not valid reasons for the government to be able to take private land to give to private interests. If that were the case, private ownership of land would become extinct.
I cannot think of a more suitable location for this pipeline than where its proposed. Environmental impact would be negligible. Geologically, virtually no issues. Those of you opposed, what is your true objective? Are you that naive to think if the pipeline is stopped, that oil will never be used somewhere someway? Dream one.
Debi-1314897
Unless I am mistaken they are not stealing the land. The owners will be compensated. That means the property will have been bought or leased. I believe all of that has already been arranged. The government simply has to give permission.
If you believe that all the oil that is being pumped in Alaska is actually being used for the common good of Americans I think you would be mistaken.
Now, if you want to have a discussion about what would have actually been for the common good of Americans consider this. Instead of selling the rights to Alaska's oil we, as a country, should have subcontracted the entire project and sold the oil on the market to pay for spending in Washington. The oil was on public land and it belonged to the citizens.
I really don't know why I am having this futile argument anyway when my actual belief is that what would be best for humanity in the long run would be the scenario I stated in 1.13. I just have a problem with people not being able to draw a comparison between what has been in the ground for decades and take for granted, and what is being proposed when there is really no difference. Yes, corporations will make money off of it, but always have.
For private landowners who do not want the pipeline built on their land, the right of a foreign corporation should be greater than the rights of American citizens?
It's real simple. I am in support of my fellow Americans who do not want to give up their property ownership for a foreign owned pipeline to be built on their land.
You must be another pipeline shill.
john:
Not everyone is interested in compensation, but want to preserve their right to ownership of their land and use it as they see fit, not how a corporation sees fit.
And btw john, you may forward me your email through your newsvine account if you'd like, so if and when you ever have a problem with the government forcefully taking your property in order to give it to a corporation, or other entity, I'll be sure to let my network of those fighting for individual rights know not to waste their time on your issue.
Hey Debi
I don't know what you are looking for from me.
I have already stated that I don't think we should be doing this for a Canadian company.
I have stated that I would rather see a few billion people fall off the face of the earth so things like this are not necessary to sustain life on the craphole we are creating.
I simply don't see a difference between what has happened in the last hundred years of building the infrastructure and what is happening now with Keystone. It was all done for companies to make money. There is no difference.
john:
There is a huge difference, john. The Keystone Pipeline provides little (some jobs) to no American public good, while infrastructure provides all of the public with good. It doesn't matter whether or not it is profitable.
Providing some jobs does not qualify as a reason for the government to invoke eminent domain on property owners. They are abusing the individual property owner rights of American citizens.
If, for instance, Walmart told the government that they wanted your house, plus about 20 other houses in your neighborhood so they could build a Walmart on it. Your family had owned it for over 100 years, you'd lived there all your life, your kids were born there, your family lived close by, and you did not want to sell, but the government took it anyway and gave it to Walmart, would you think it fair? Would you think it justified that a corporation like Walmart, just because they wanted your land, convinced the government to take it from you? It's the same thing with Keystone.
They are abusing the intent and power of eminent domain, with the assistance of our government, and it's dead wrong.
You are absolutely correct. I wish I could give you more than one "thumbs up" on your comments. Good job. Shouldn't have been collapsed by the ignorant among us.
I never said it was right. Only that it is no different than when our government did it in the past. Maybe it was wrong then too. Most people alive have never even heard about pipelines being put in considering most were done before they were born. In fact, I doubt anyone under forty has a clue what is down there.
Do I think the landowners should be forced to sell? No
Do I think it is right that the government can simply take the land? No
Should people fight for their property rights? Yes
I simply just don't see a difference between what they did fifty years ago and what they are doing now. They did it in the past so companies could profit, and they are trying to do it now so companies can profit. And I really don't think they care whether the money comes from American citizens or from around the world. And I also don't think they really give a damn whether it is for the "common good". Whether it will be used here or anywhere else I see as irrelevant.
You make it sound like I am for this pipeline and I have repeatedly stated I disagree with it. I don't agree with it for the reason of people destroying the earth, not something I see as a smaller issue of property rights. People have been fighting this battle over property rights for over a hundred years and have lost every time. Property rights are important, but I think a better argument is potential ecological devastation.
But John, it IS different than when our government did it in the past. The infrastructure put in place years ago was for the public good. Keystone's infrastructure is not.
Btw John, I'm glad you are voicing your opinion against Keystone.
The reason I'm making a point about the purpose and limits of eminent domain is because you are not alone in thinking the government has taken land in the past, so why not in this instance with Keystone.
Eminent domain has been abused by the government in the past and it's time for the public to tell the government this is unacceptable and wrong.
You are right, it is wrong. But guess what? They wrote the laws. They created the laws for a particular purpose. and that is to take what they want. I commend those that are fighting, but I fear it is a losing battle. Precedence is on their side. Force is on their side. Maybe you can point out a time in the last 40 years when the people have gone up against our corrupt government and won. I understand wanting to hope that you can, but sadly they don't really care what you believe and never will.
The Constitution is dead, unless we are willing to give up our lives for it.
Thank "God" for these people. They create enough "Hot Air" that no one ever needs to worry about being warm nor do we need any of this "natural gas" that happens to be here on the planet.
We have plenty from these "green" folks.
No wonder we are suffering "Global Green house" issues.
Hey, at least they don't heat their homes with fossil fuels and walked or rode their bicycles to the rally. We know that they are sincere people who wouldn't do anything to contribute to global warming.
Well, at least one would think. Surely there couldn't be others like Al Gore who think that stopping global warming is all about getting others to do without, but that they are allowed to do what they want because they are "talking" about the evils of global warming.
I don't want their filthy tar sand oil. More soot in the air. And don't say I am a car driving pot calling the kettle black, either. I moved to Oregon where I can ride my horse to the store.
fawna: As long as you pick up the droppings! Oh, and have a filter so that the farts don't pollute.
Hundreds not thousands. The media always uses a multiplier of at least 10.
Here's the point the righties seem to miss...what benefit is there to the US in general and especially to those Americans living in proximity to the proposed pipeline vs the risks?
Will it reduce unemployment? A little for a short while.
Will it lower gas prices for US consumers? Not at all
Will it make the US less foreign oil dependent? Not at all.
Will the oil piped be refined and/or consumed in the US? No.
Who benefits from the pipeline? International investors.
So why build it, given the risks? $$$
Why didn't the company build the pipeline to Canada's west coast or east coast for international shipping? Because Canada's environmental laws wouldn't allow it.
@fascist:
And where did you get your info? Out of a cracker jacks box? It's desnation is a deep water port to shipped over seas and oil is priced on the open market so there is no way in hell it will ever bring down the cost of oil or gas in the States. And when this first came up Canada has all ready said it is to shipped over seas. So stop watching Am radio and shut of Rush and put your tin foil hat back on the self because you have not a clue want your talking about.
Nope...its being shipped to a tax free zone.
Since when do fossil fuel companies pay ANY taxes? I'm pretty sure they actually receive more subsidies than any industry, and end up paying zero taxes.
I'm a conservative and even I think Keystone XL is a death sentence for our future.
yeah, meanwhile gas prices are through the roof again- this is just another opportunity to gouge the crap out of the consumer
Thank <insert the deity of your choice> for the progressive left!
Soon we will all be living in a natural paradise surrounded by all of our third world friends, enjoying an organically grown vegan diet, and receiving universal free health care, housing and foodstamps. We will be able to see what our facebook friends are reading and/or watching on our solar powered IPads and nudge them away from anything deemed politically incorrect ;). There will be no need for guns or self defense because everything will be shared equally, and no need to fear our benevolent government because only progressive people will be in charge. Deer will roam our pesticide and fertilizer free gardens and wolves will come up to the front porch to kiss our little kitty cats on the lips.
Oh, and no smoking! Have a nice day!
@witchrunner:
Many people pay good money for horse droppings. It is considered prime fertilizer without chemical additives. And no horse on the planet could express as much hot air as you are gracing us with tonight.
From the studies I heard about, it will raise prices on mid-America. We have enough price gouging!
screminmimi: Yup! Must be at least $1,400 an ounce! But, cows are going to destroy the earth. I hope you feel good about supporting Al Gore in his latest endeavor that he is trying to force the government to implement policies that will allow him to make millions on products and service's that, without government regulations, wouldn't produce a dime.
So I guess all these hypocrites walked to DC - LMAO! These "environmentalists" are a joke - driving around in their SUV's, using their cell phones, using their computers, watching their tv's, heating their homes, cooling their homes, wearing their clothes, eating their food - all with help from fossil fuels. What pathetic jokes they are!! The whole "not in my backyard" bullsh*t!
Fawna said:
Well, if we could bag that, we could produce all sorts of fuel!!
Short term American jobs with all of the benefits going to Canada and big oil. The risk is great if all of the oil were to be used in the United States to lower our energy costs and give a boost to our economy. To shoulder all of that risk for little of nothing is a fool's game. Vegas offers better odds at the blackjack table (I only play that game with friends and only come out ahead when I am dealing). The Keystone Pipeline is heavily rigged to assure we all lose.
Great, now move to Europe where apparently you can sell your horse as ground beef.
Gas prices are up because of whatever reasons they give us, inventory, summer mix etc.. I think the price is up because they are trying to force the government to give a green light to the project. They are trying to hold the population hostage to strong arm the government. Works out well because government gets a cut on each and every gallon you pump in your cars.
@DontMessWith
They pay taxes at the same rate as all other corporations. Subsidies have been gone for years. If you weren't lying about being a conservative you'd know that.
@olddog47
Please site the source/s for your information...Beck, Rush, made up?........waiting.........
save the environment,
No, gas prices are up because we're printing more and more money. When you continue to devalue a currency that a commodity is based on, oil, it takes more of that currency to buy it. I know it's much easier for low information voters such as yourself to throw an etc... on the end of your sentence than to actually give the situation some critical thought. Thinking's hard...
C'mon Keystone!
It WILL be approved by July and the environMENTAList's will go crazy and you know what OBAMA isn't running for office anymore and he wont care !
It's the countdown to meltdown ! coming in the summer 2013 !
mike...perhaps not as several states continue to block it's going forwrd.
culheath#2.6...you did your homework and there's more to that list and it's not good. Canda chose not to do the pipline within to protect their environment. Why? Perhaps because of the Canadian areas that already are dealing with the existing pipline have contamination issues. So tell me again why would we risk our environment and citizens health for what? Profit...for whom? Here's a novel idea for Canada our friend keep the pipline with all the gains good or bad. We don't need it nor can we afford it.
I think you and culheath have been hitting off the same bong tonight! Do your homework somewhere besides daily kos.
TransCanada says in their website that they want to build "Keystone XL, the 1897-km (1179-mile) pipeline from Hardisty, Alberta to Cushing, OK."
Now, here's something to think about: Why don't they run the pipeline from Hardisty, Alberta to Vancouver, British Columbia, a distance of about 600 miles, as the crow flies?
Oh, Canadian Rockies in the way? Then divert to Calgary and take a lower route west. Or go east to Hudson Bay and then tanker it out, a distance of about 800 miles.
Canada could keep all those wonderful jobs to itself and have its own pipeline in its own country!
Kinda makes you wonder just what the hell is up with this whole Keystone XL boondoggle and why TransCanada and the Republican party are so eager to foist their pipeline off on us, doesn't it?
Pro-pipeline, Republicans, please read this Post. Did you know that if we had 10 Keystone Pipelines, or 20 Keystone Pipelines, the price of Gasoline or Heating Oil would not drop one penny. There is no free enterprise in oil, it is traded on the international market, America does not benefit. All the world's oil is tied up by multi-national corporations. Now, if the oil had to be delivered to new refineries in the Midwest, and all by-products turned into plastics and fertilizers in American Factories, and the price was determined at a mid-west hub, and was excise taxed before foreign delivery, and we got the actual benefit in reduced energy prices (like Venezuela and Arab Oil producers, gas is about 30 cents a gallon in Venezuela) then build the dam pipeline. But no, we get no benefit from Canadian Oil or our own oil, why, why, why, ask your Republican friends, they know damn well, why hire a lobbiest when you own a Republican Senator...or Congressman...Conservatives are not Conservatives, they Conserve nothing but their own butts...ever see a Republican Tree hugger, or Stop a Dam from going in, or didn't want another big-box store on every street, yeah, they have your backside...right...
I have been waiting my entire life to see something smart come out of our government. That would be over 80 years. So far, considering our potential, there hasn't been much to brag about.
This Keystone pipeline will probably happen because there is so much money to be made for those that really don't need any more. The number of jobs for the USA is a lie. What we will get from it is a lot of bad sh!t for the environment and it will take away from doing something more sensible. Ask yourselves: What reason do we have for believing those that want the pipeline? NONE.
We have a lot of very smart people that we need to subsidise to find better ways to get the energy we need. We can start by a movement for population decrease. Along with that, the universe is full of nothing but energy. All we have to do is use our heads and find how to hook up to it without destroying our life support systems. Fuk the oil and coal companies. They don't give a crap for you. All they want is more money now they will never live long enough to spend.
That's the ultimate joke. Each person has the same amount of receptors for feelings. Just to mention one thing, all the fuking money in the world will never give a guy more than one cock. We all die eventually. Think about it.
.....it may not lower fuel prices, or then again, it may lower fuel prices. One thing it will do is provide thousands of jobs, good ones, while its being being built, and after its built. I like to keep things simple Jensen....you just blah, blah blah blah. conserve that.
Once again Ignorance is at play in these Postings.............Do your Research and you will find that Parts of the Pipeline are already being built. .............The Canadians want to sell to the U.S. ....and have said if we do not secure the means to receive it that they will Truck it to British Columbia and Tanker it to CHINA who are willing to buy their oil. ............The pipeline will Create many direct and supporting industry JOBS. ...........The Pipeline will make us more Prosperous and not as dependent on the Middle East Countries who HATE us , but suck on the Petro dollar just the same. .................The Pipeline was designed around the Environment and the one problem in North Dakota has been rerouted and resolved. .............Obama and his corrupt minions are playing Politics against it. .............Also it will have no effect on " CLIMATE CHANGE ". ...........These Sheeple only Parrot what they hear on the Lame Stream Media outlets. ...........Over 50 of the World Top Scientists say Carbon emissions cause only 5% of so called Global Warming and if you Plant more trees along roads and highways it will reduce it further. ...They also did research about past climate and the Earth is actually cooler than it was 120 years ago. ....So that argument is bogus!!! ................And to let you Know they have Suppressed Technology of Carbureters that get 100 + miles to the gallon since 1982 when GM bought the patent and shelved it. ......Also did you Know? ..... That every Car company has a parent company that is an OIL company (starting to get the picture)!!!! ........We are Dependent on oil for Now and it will take 40 years to ween off of it. ........... So in the time till that happens we have to deal with oil while we find the alternatives to it. ..........Knee jerk reactions injure us and slow down the pace to actually solving our Problems. .......We need Real solutions and not Ignorance to make a change. ......."Technology without Wisdom is Destruction"...... Look around and you will see that this is true. ....... .......There are solutions to our Problems , but Politics and Big Corporations Hinder the Progress for Profits and Power!!!! ........We need New Technology Protocols that ensure protections for the Environment and fix the Existing ones. ........We could be so much further advanced than our Government has let us be. ....Time for Real change. ....WE the PEOPLE need to Change our Governing Body to a Better one!! ......To the REPUBLIC for which we stand, one Nation , United and Liberty for ALL.!!!
The rhetoric has come from Multi-Nationals, Banksters, and hucksters. If the American people can benefit from our national resources, they same way that Norway does, then I have not problem. Norway is a net energy producer, and every Norwegian man, woman, and child, directly benefits from all natural resources. Why are we not benefiting directly from our natural resources. Where has all our gold gone, our gold reserves have not be audited since the 1950s, how can that be responsible?
It may not lower fuel prices.
See clean news at:
How many cars were on the road when the ice age ended?
Just watch Al Gores ooooooopppps I mean the Big Oil network and join the protest. Gas sells high with weak minds of the Nazi state.
@Jim-952823
Provide thousands of temporary jobs. That amount to how much? Millions of dollars and then when there are leaks, who will clean up? It's us tax payers and we will shell out BILLIONS, yes, billions not millions we got from jobs.
Clearly you are familiar with basic math between millions and billions, right?
If it's actually provide more benefits on the US, then I and the rest of people would fully support it. However, as it stands, we will gain so little and yet RISK so much.
I'm liberal but support the pipeline. The world consumes a certain amount of oil daily and the only control we have is who we buy from. I'd rather we buy our oil from Canada then Venezuela. Even if some of this ends up being exported from the gulf coast, better it provide the thousands of American jobs it would provide then forcing Canada to build it's own with no jobs and all the oil going to China. This is a national project and no local government should be allowed to block it. People who comsume massive amounts of oil every year as most of us do are hypocritical if they oppose almost all oil projects in our country or waters as many do.
CuongDNguyen: That's ridiculous. Oil spill clean ups are paid for by the oil companies and pipeline owners as well as in most cases huge fines. You're either a liar or ignorant. Or both. And many permanent jobs would be created to monitor pipeline and operate port facilities.
Jensen and Pippo Schillaci, you guys nailed it.
The pipeline will create some temporary jobs, yes. It will not lower fuel prices one penny for Americans or increase the fuel supply available for us.
Who benefits? BIG OIL.
Let's stop burning fossil fuels and start developing renewable forms of energy. It's time to move forward to save our planet, build new industries, create thousands of jobs, and rid ourselves of dependency on oil.
What happens when there's a tornado in the midwest? A blizzard could also damage the pipeline, and it would cut through valuable farmland.
We don't need to keep subsidizing the most profitable industry in the history of the world to the detriment of our environment. We need to look at the damage caused by climate change and ask ourselves if it's worth losing our coastlines and battling more frequent and more intense storms and droughts, all for the sake of the almighty $.
Larry, all the oil would go to China anyway. The guys who run BIG OIL are greedy bastards.
Thousands, fuzzy liberal TV math, it appeared on TV that their may have been a few hundred and I bet not a one of them work.
My problem with the pipe line is that, the oil from Canada is to be sold to china. Not to the USA. Why should we take the risk of spills, we just have to look at the Canadian pipe line, that should tell us all we need to know. Oil sand is has more of a problem also, that sand is going to wear out the pipe very fast so leaks and spills will be much more often. Why should we put up with that for China's oil. It is China's oil we are talking about. Then what about the waste product? Where is that go? Let China refine that oil. Let China pollute there air and land. Those so called Jobs are short lived and and will most likely filled with Chinese people, because they will work for slave wadges. And in the end we tax payer will most likely pick up the tab for this whole thing. Block this. we don't need it. We have enough Oil and gas of our own, We do't need Canada's.
This pipe line is only for exporting oil, making money for big oil and destroying the environment. After years of trying to get away from buying oil from foreign markets under Obama we are importing less and producing more oil than ever before. Producing so much big oil wants to sell it somewhere else. They don't care because their profit is built in if they produce it at home or buy it from half way across the world, Americans have to pay their price. Keep this stuff locally.
Sweat/shiver in the dark you dumb people
gcoop-3-4/ I have written before what you have blogged. I also question why Canada 1.Is so concerned with creating jobs in our country rather than their own, and2.why they do not Build their pipeline across their own country as the distance is shorter. To have these fools do something against their best interest you could hang a hundred dollar bill on a fishing rod over an active volcano and they would kill themselves trying to get it.
Canada doesn't want the pipeline crossing their country because Canadians care about their evironment. They probably figure Americans are too dumb and too greedy to care about our land.
What Canadians think or say matters not. We could not stop a pipeline if we tried our best, in any case we are less than 1/10th the population and influence of our neighbors in the USA. Canada would build the refinery capacity here if the resources were available to our small population. For now the Canadian Gov. will do whatever the big mutinational oil companies want since most Canadian politicians are brown nosers. The multinationals involved in oil sand extraction, Shell Oil, Imperial Oil, BP, and Total, are not Canadian. Hosts of construction companies working in the tar sands are not Canadian, eg. Jacobs Catylitic, Kellog Brown and root, Lockerbie and Hole, Foster Wheeler, ABB, Alstom, Bantrel, McDermot, Fluor and the list goes on and on. Then do not forget all the non Canadian machinery companies operating in the tar sands eg Caterpillar, Finning International, Krupp, Sterling Crane, Mammoet, Eveready, and the list goes on. Mass acreage mining claims sold recently is in the hands of Australian, Chinese and American interests. The disputed dirty Canadian oil is... C a n a d i a n..., is it really?? I wish to say that the pro forces relating to the Keystone Pipeline are greater than anyone can imagine. For that reason it is a go and all the nay sayer reaction/rhetoric in the world won't stop it. All the politicians involved are whores and Mr.Obama is on the list. He will officially approve the mostly completed pipeline when the action is least damaging to his political career, despite whatever he says in the interim.
@ Kenneth: There it is, you said it, nothing to add. However, I thought your country was a little more enlightend & intelligent than ours. Didn't realize your 'gummint' was as corrupt & corroded as ours. Well, ya learn something new everyday - now my day is not a total loss. Hey! Love your BC bud.
Kenneth, thank you for your sharing and your honesty. I was surprised on my last visit to Toronto in 2011 (by the way I love Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver) how pro-corporate and big-business-pushy the Canadian government had become.
Activists in Canada have been angry about what their government is doing in many places...including trying to bust some teachers' union, and reduce tuition fees for college students. Canada is already digging big in the Arctic as global warming is going to open up a lot of oil rich and mineral rich land. Canada is doing very well economically, better than the US. They also have better relationship with Europe and Asia. Most Canadians tell Americans bluntly that they don't matter too much, Canadians are no longer second class to Americans and Canada needs to move on independently economically.
Most Canadians hate the pipeline, and it is unpopular...so they are happy to send it through the US Midwest. The central region is a bit Conservative (you know the Winnipeg area). This decision was made several years ago to make Canadians happy and the oil companies happy...now the US is left with it.
Thanks Kenneth...and keep on writing. Welcome!
In the end there will be too much money at stake to stop it. It will get approved at some point, even if BO doesn't do it in his term.
I don't really blame my neighbor for wanting to truck his toxic waste across my land, because it's cheaper than truciking it across his.... but I don't let him do it.
The purpose of the Keystone pipeline is to provide a cheaper way for Canadian oil billionaires to get their product to market.
I worked for oil companies for 40 years. Oil companies are like every one else they want the same for their product as others get. Just like farmers who make a mint when corn, wheat or soybeans sky rocket because the Chinese are buying up stocks, we're a world economy. If France, Germany and China are paying $100 a barrel why should American companies sell it for less? It's the mineral rights holder and the oil companies product not yours.
Not one of you "engineer's" impresses me. Learn something, don't blather. Studying economics won't hurt either. AND, why would we want to give the biggest polluter in the world more fossil fuel to burn to increase it's economy?
All you enviroMENTALists take note. Unless you are out there with the cattle, bison, or caribou chewing on the grasses naked, you are all a bunch of hypocrites. So stfu and move along.
Earth First! We will mine and drill the other planets later.
Uhm, they think cattle, bison, or caribou are envionmental hazzards too!
I'd like to know how many of these pipeline boosters live anywhere near the proposed pipeline routes...or have any other skin in the game at all.
“People have come from almost all over the country, from every state, to really send a strong message to the president that we have his back....." Hypocrits! Unless you walked or rode your bike/horse to this rally, you contributed to the carbon load.
dj, 40,000 aren't very many. Whats the us population? I'v never seen that many jerks in one place at one time.
@culheath
How can you be right one day, and so wrong the next? Do you have multiple personalities? How many of those protesters "from almost all over the country, from every state" do you think live near the pipeline route? By your own logic, none of them have any "skin in the game!"
If the pipeline is approved, you and I will not see any of this oil as it will go to Texas ports, get loaded on tankers and be exported to the highest bidder.
I live in Texas.. I Know people currently working on the Keystone Pipeline. Surveyors Making about $5000 a month. I Drive a Truck and The truckers that deliver to the Oil wells and Pipeline places get paid between 100k and 150k per year... So purely as a matter of greed I hope this pipeline stuff gets full approval ASAP.....
Dude your sitting in a building using electricity to power the computer that your typing your bs on!!! So I guess that you onermailliw are the one that should STFU and move along because you are obviously NOT sitting naked chewing grasses with the bison, buffalo etc..Just who is the hypocrite??? Could it be you????
We are paying interest on the national DEBT.
Educate yourself, please. I believe that if you do, you will change your mind on several issues.
Who doesn't? :)
The protestors have skin in the game on a global level because this oil to be transported adds so much more carbon to the total; it is super dirty oil causing huge environmental damage at the source and as it is refined and then finally as it is consumed.
( Here's some pix of the projects at source)
The pro-pipeline people seem to have neither a local interest nor a global one and are merely being for the pipeline on an ideological basis and possibly to be merely contrarian, using ephemeral job creation as their sole positive criterion.
So it goes.
the word pix in the above post is the link, by the way.
I though the rally was about Global warming. What does the pipeline have to do with the issue. They must be desperate for a theme.
The pipeline will be built. Canada has been producing this oil and needs to find a buyer for it. We can either let them ship it to China via a pipeline they propose to the west, or we can bring it down to our refineries. Think about it. China where the pollution is so bad they had to stop factories and cars in order to clean the air enough to host the Olympics? Or here where the EPA and regulations can at least make a dent in the global impact of refining this oil. That is as long as the corporations don't get what they want to be regulation free.
Yes... kill the pipeline and open the door for China to get its foothold on sucking up as much oil as it can from North America. Jeeze...
You realize of course that oil is a commodity, traded on the open market, right? Most of that oil will end up in China anyway.
We can regulate this if we want to KaiEr.
We are not legally bound to allow ANY foreign interests to do business in the US. We can kick BP out any time we want to, we just do not want to.
Nothing like having a huge pipeline shoved up your behind and then explode to know you've been screwed. The only kiss you're gonna get is kissing your own behind goodbye. Now line up and bend over like good little boys and girls. Think of it as a slick, black enema. You'll like it, I promise(snicker, snicker).
commonsense, how many jobs is this suposed to create? I assume you aren't one of the 47%?
Just enough jobs until the monstrosity is built with the cheapest labor available. No experience necessary. No job security or any of those silly benefits. Your assumption is wrong. I have always been one of the 100%.
It will be good to have the pipeline built before our economic collapse. Our country will at least be able to export oil to bring some revenue into the country after the dollar becomes worthless. Everyone knows that both political parties have already sold their souls to corporate America so that they can remain in their positions of power. Instead, our politicians will give taxpayer money out to their crony green energy friends that will "unfortunately" declare bankruptcy before anything gets built (ie Solyndra).
Oil that is piped from Canada to refineries in Texas City, Tx will not end up in China.
Oil that is purchased from Canada is not purchased from Saudi Arabia, and that's a good thing. If we are producing the oil here, then at least it's our people who are doing the drilling and getting a paycheck. You people will have to someday accept the fact that we cannot have sustained prosperity without productivity. If nobody grows food, then nobody eats. By the way, Canada is not the only place where they are using new technologies to produce oil. Take a look at what's happening in North Dakota, where unemployment is around 2%. And by the way, jobs in oil production are not minimum wage jobs. They are good paying, career level jobs.
kfilly, the pipeline will not allow oil for us to export. We will be the mules carrying the oil for Canadians to export. Like a mule, the only rewards for our heavy burden will be a a handful of carrots, then a broken back and a one way trip to the glue factory.
@Commonsense101
You have none(common sense).
Experience is very necessary when building a pipeline! I can only conclude that when you speak of cheap labor you mean non-union reasonably priced labor, but the labor will still not be cheap. The labor will undoubtedly be permanent employees of the contractors awarded the bids, and will, for the most part have benefits.
The oil won't end up in China. Same thing you said about the North Shore oil that the Alaska pipeline was for. That was completed and how much did the price go down? The snake oil salesmen in the oil industry and congress have to come up with a new line. I know that there'll be jobs, but several years ago, I lived in Utah and there was a pipeline going through. I got hired, but 90% of the workers were shipped in from other areas, the local economy was hardly helped at all. The work only lasted for a few months, so the gains for the local community were minimal at best. I later found out that the gas was going to shipping points on the Gulf coast to be exported.
We? You mean BIG OIL. Of course they don't want to curtail their business in any way. They also own our politicians, or many of them.
Face reality: big business, especially BIG OIL, rules the world.
WE, the people, do want to stop the degradation of our environment and end the wars and the terrorism that is essentially funded by BIG OIL.
Join us! Or else remain complicit.
the president refused the pipeline the first time it was pushed in his face ans said no because it was not beneficial on the whole to the american citizenry
all the repblican senators and only one democratic senator pushed for the pipeline
the citizens in some states are screaming for the pipeline believing it will provide for more jobs, however we need to realize at what cost and for how long (after its built does it allow for 70% of the jobs to remain or 20% because it will only require minimum people to maintain the pipeline. who will have the majority of the contracts since its originating from canada are they getting to be the primary contractor and the United States the sub?)
lets think and understand the true pros and cons before we wave our hands screaming about job creation
lets make them provide detail of contracts and how the American people will benefit at present and in the long run over time not just during construction
dont fall for the okey doke the rope a dope or any other falsities we have fallen for historically
kbt/ You may find it interesting that Big U.S. Oil payed for the destruction of the legally elected Government of Spain in the nineteen thirties. They bore the cost of moving General Franco's Army from N.Africa to start the successful rebellion against the Spanish Government. Then Germany and Italy sent in forces to help him.The Western Govs. ignored this rebellion ,except that private citizens joined the so-called International Brigades, in the unsuccessful attempt to preserve the legitimate Government. Big International Oil always looks after it's own interest first.
Thanks for that info, listoire. I agree that BIG OIL always looks after its own interests first.
If will soon be possible for all of us to live without oil or coal, if only we have the will to buck BIG OIL and develop renewable energy.
Of course it will, Bob. It's going to Texas because that's where the deep water ports are - the ones used for EXPORTING refined product. Duh.
I have the same feelings about these people as I do PETA.Idiots.
They probably don't like you either...
@broker:
And they hate idiots that don't have a clue about the way the oil field works.
No, hate the idiots that do not understand that climate change is real and that we are responsible for it.
It is changing toward a cooler climate and we have had nothing to do with it.
@rex
Where do you get your information on the subject?
Some advice, Rex. If you live anywhere near the coast, move inland. Don't delay.
If you live in Texas, get out. The drought will continue there. Try to avoid the more frequent and more powerful tornados, hurricanes, ice storms, and blizzards that will eventually curtail travel severely.
Move somewhere cooler, as Earth's temperature keeps rising and changes of every sort, involving insects, birds, crops, and disease are glaringly apparent.
Open your eyes and your mind to reality.
The pipeline would transport Canadian oil across US territory for sale on the world market. The US would bear all of the environmental risks and benefit in no way whatever short of the temporary jobs generated by it's construction.
Oil prices a set by global market forces. Should we bear the risks of this debacle on our soil we would still be paying the same rate per barrel of oil as the Chinese.
The pipeline would made a great deal of money for it's operators, and that is the only thing it would be good for.
Stop it.
@leftisfascist. Bull, the market forces won't lower the prices, anyone with a brain that works knows that. The US takes all the risk, Canada makes the money, and the oil is already earmarked for China.
Read the Trans-Canada documents before you shoot off your mouth leftisfascist. It explains everything from the temp jobs to a handful, a small handful of jobs, and no tax benefits to the US, as it's being shipped to a no tax zone in Texas.
But then again, leftisfascist would rather show everyone how low informed, and mis informed he is. So please continue on and prove my point.
You don't get it at all...read the damn reports and stop making yourself look rightwing stupid.
No new oil refineries will be built, thus no new jobs in that area. Leftisfacist, you do not have any clue do you? Your very name that you call yourself sums up your stupidity. No, more oil does not mean lower prices. Where did you get your education? Speculators set prices. And gas prices simply will not drop until there are more refineries. None have been built in years but they have been shutting down. Stop watching Faux News and do some research before you spout off!
Leftis:::: It sure was a economical boost to the US when the pipe was manufactured in India,the majority of the work will be done by foreign workers under Canadian supervision.Once the pipe is finished the oil will be exported and not refined in the US.The only US workers will be pumping the oil on ships.So much for your economics down the toilet???? Gas is hitting $4.00 a gallon so why are we exporting gas ,another one of your economics idea down the toilet,maybe some of your brain economics went there to.
@ fascist:
First off your the one that's stupid because of the time it takes to build a refinery. And they all ready have enough to do the job so there is no need to hire more help. And if this pipe line takes more that six to eight months to complete then there going way slow. And yes all the jobs will be tempeary because as soon as the line is done so is every one working on it.
Why the oil companies, silly. How do you think they control supply? Why do thing the recent increase in gas prices happened at this time of year? Man you are clueless. You've got to be a troll.
Fascist -- It may take 20,000 jobs(or 2000, take your pick) to build it but it will only take 200 to operate it. That's the difference between temporary and permanent jobs. Oh, that doesn't include the 200,000 people to clean up the spills.
Leftist, the PIPELINE jobs would be temporary. Once it is built those jobs dry up and go away. Only maintenance workers would remain. No one is talking about refineries except you.
Increased supply at a constant demand does indeed lower prices, but the demand is not and never will be constant, it is constantly rising. Increasing supply by going off into high risk adventures such as this pipeline won't have any realistic effect of world supply that OPEC can't trump as needed to keep prices up.
The only beneficiaries of this ridiculous project would be its billionaire backers. They can do without the money.
I find the name calling quite distasteful.
bear, if you are so far left that you beleive the crap you wrote, shame on you. Our gas prices are where they are because that is where obama and his posse want them. We have a ton of oil and the fool won't let us drill, they have made it almost impossible to build new refineries and on and on and on. Are you so far left that you don't remember obama wanting european oil prices at our pumps?
the price of oil is controlled mostly by the american dollar. our goverment pushes the dollar down to help improve our exports.this causes oil prices to be higheralso all products made from oil.over the long term the pipeline would be fantastic.all the people of the world would benefit from a more stable supply.the world population will continue to increase our goverment could back the u.s. dollar with oil and natural gasinstead of gold or platinum.
Bear: It is commonly held, basic, undergraduate level economic theory that an increase in supply will put downward pressure on prices. If demand is rising also, then the net effect of increased supply and rising demand will determine the price.
Also, don't forget that lower prices reduce the incentive for greater exploration, as well as the incentive to conserve.
By artificially constraining reserve development, the government has reduced supply, which has increased prices. This has been right in line with OPEC's strategy, which has been to support high prices by constraining production. Accordingly, we have conserved. The natural response for industry would normally be to increase production, but environmental constraints have discouraged this. As a result of this policy, fuel prices that we pay every day are artificially high; kept there by OPEC and US government environmental policy.
@unreal,
Your thinking is indeed unreal, we are drilling more right now than ever before. President Obama is not a member of OPEC and therefore has nothing to do with oil prices. And by the way, the oil companies don't want to build refineries, that might lower prices and they can't have that. If you don't believe me, do a little research and stop watching faux news, you RIGHT WING CLOWN!!!
Right . . . Have you considered that higher prices incentivize construction of refineries? What do you suppose oil company A would do during a time of rising prices, if oil company B built a new refinery and used it to take market share?
Do you have any business experience at all? Because you sure don't sound like it.
Leftisfascist, What shortage has caused the spike in oil prices the last month or so? Oil prices are spiking, and the only reason I can see is they are trying to manipulate public opinion to approve this destructive project. Oil companies make higher and higher profits, while collecting government subsidies and we get stuck with the bill. Don't think for a second that they give two sh!ts about you, me, or anybody else. I'm tired of the country I love being raped, and the rapist getting rich from the crime.
leftisfascist banned for personal attacks. No good.
I always love the CAN't do attitude the repugs always put on the table. Big bunch of whiners
Oh lefty, all the oil co. have to do is say this thing happened or that and oil goes right back up again. Please pay attention next time. Will you?
Water and gravity...it's called hydroelectric. None of the pipeline oil will be used in the States and it's contribution to the world oil supply will not lower consumer prices. Give one example of where that has happened.
Name one benefit that building this pipeline would give to US consumers. Give us one reason you arguing in favor of it, besides the short term and minor employment in it's construction.
I knew you wouldn't be able to supply even one example.
Leftis::: The oil WILL NOT be refined in the US ,get it through your skull!!!!
The oil will probably be partially refined in Texas by people who already work at the refineries. It will be cleaned up and turned into regular dirty crude oil and all the garbage will be dumped in the Gulf of Mexico. Very few new jobs.
okiejoe and culheath, even obama's gov boys say we will get 8% of our i repeat 8% of our oil from this.
Culheath: Want examples? Take a look at what happened to world oil prices immediately after the completion of the Alaska pipeline. While you're at it, take a look at what happened to oil prices right after the UK started to cash in on their reserves in the North Sea.
If we want to have prosperity, we have to at least try to be competitive. That doesn't mean that we have to work seven year olds in factories at $1 per day, but it does mean that we have to at least take advantage of the resources that we have available to us. Exploitation of the tar sands in Canada and North Dakota offers us the opportunity to change world oil markets. We have to do it as cleanly and as carefully as we can, but we have to do it.
This pipeline will exclusively carry Canadian oil not American and it is not destined for our markets. There is no competitive advantage for the Americans whatsoever by building this pipeline. The point of building this route for The TransCanada corporation is because in order for them to produce reasonable profits for this product which is hugely expense both to extract and to refine, they need to sell it on the world market rather than domestically or to the States - and soon because Chinese investors are poised to take over the market from the Canadians.
The Canada provinces and a large majority of the public (66%) are against any pipeline running through Canada and so TransCanada is desperate to push a pipeline through the States to realize the profits they need to keep their investors.
On the other hand, aside from what Americans may be invested in the TransCanada company, there is no advantage nor profit nor price reduction of oil products from the pipeline oil for this country...just risk and very short term employment during the construction phase.
You always seem to have the proper and only answers! One would have to question just that alone!
If you are addressing me, blame it on my having been raised in Detroit :)
The delusional are out in droves. Who unlocked the asylums? (Hint: the Democrooks.)
Secure your doors; load your guns. They may show up at your doorstep with G-men. Yep, an inconvenient truth live in your neighborhood.
Do you think these crazies will return to their oil run cars and drive home after the din is over?
It's global cooling....no wait It's global warming.....no wait It's global climate change. When are those idiots in the picture going to surrender their glasses which is made with petroleum products? Then they can be blind physically as well as mentally
Meds run out B&G?
Lefty,Whats powering that tumble weed in your skull. Let me guess. Budweiser. yummy
sounds like Lefty needs a time out.
Has MSNBC stopped monitoring these threads for people who are proud to let their abuse and anger issues hang all out? WHen someone has to call other people names to prove a point, he only reveals his own obvious shortcomings and problems.
I'm supposing it's because the moderators were off for the weekend.
A simple question.Why would Canada want to build a longer pipeline through the U.S.A. ? It would be a shorter pipeline heading either East or West.
Gotta go lefty, I have to have a intelligent convo with my 3 year old. Stay outta trouble now. Bye
john doe, so you are admitting you are at a 3 year old mentality! That's not good.
That still leaves him twice as smart as you.
I don't want to pay more for gas. No to the pipeline! - Denver
Gas has doubled since `08 and in case you didn't know, the original Keystone pipeline is operating and has since 2010. It also crosses over the Ogalla aquifer. Hmm, started operating in 2010...Obama was in his second year at the White House, wasn't he?
Pipelines cost less to transport oil over land than trucks and the company has to pay property tax into the communities it goes through. That means money for schools, hospitals and roads. But hey, they don't need any of those replaced, upgraded or maintained, do they? Surely not in this economy...
Dan, do you know why the Rocky Mountain states are 20 cents lower, on average gas prices, then the rest of the country?
Dan, back to your point about the Ogalla. Nebraska put the foot down hard over this. The west has no water. And NO, you cannot pump out the Great Lakes....To run this pipeline over water, which is more valuable than oil, we just have not figured that out yet, is insane. The water supply must be protected at all costs.
Are you aware that there are thousands of miles of pipelines already in place...for decades.
http://www.theodora.com/pipelines/united_states_pipelines.html
Catch up Sialia. The pipeline has been re-designed to avoid the aquifer, and Nebraska has approved the new design.
If there are thousands of miles of pipelings already in place, then what is the basis for believing that this pipeline presents some special environmental threat?
Before the Deepwater Horizon, where was the basis for a threat? Once there is an accident, the oil companies look to the government to clean it up. Sounds like a three year old who expects mommy to clean up after he spills cereal on the floor. Besides the natural, or mechanical error threat, it gives terrorists an attractive target. You can't effectively protect thousands of miles of pipeline stretching across the plains.
One of the signs in the picture says "There is no planet B". Where is planet A?
You are living on it, radical. Is this point really lost on you?
sialia, there you go again, you and the lead lady in the picture need to take you meds.
Yeah, I wonder how much Buffet paid the enviornmental nutcases to go protest against the pipeline in DC?
Hmmmm, I also wonder whose railroad is transporting the oil from Canada to Texas that the pipeline isn't transporting?
Hmmm, I wonder why Buffet allowed Obama to drag his name through the mud all over America?
Follow the dollars.
its called natural gas and buffet is making billions off it. However, he is a liberal and that makes him not evil. Not buffet, he has put all his money in a trust, so he doesn't have to pay taxes. His sec that yelled I paided at a highter percentage the buffet, Is making 500,000 a year. Do you know any other sec that makes that kind of money?
Also, don't forget our old friend George Soros, who has recently invested billions in oil exploration off of the coast of Brazil. George couldn't very well expect to get a top notch return on his investment if oil prices were to fall. Like you said, follow the money.
But Obama is a friend to the little man! If you don't believe it, just ask him!
Champagne, Follow your own advice and follow the money. Who will profit from the pipeline? Big oil will. They don't get involved in anything that doesn't benefit them big time. Believe me, if they can get a dollar more for a barrel of oil from China, they'll forget all about this country.
Unreal, At least he pays his secretary. How much do you think the secretaries at Standard oil and BP make? And they pay a higher rate than their employers do. Besides that, Buffet was the one that said she paid a higher rate. If you're going to make an argument, at least get your facts straight
Champagne, you don't really think ANYone got paid to go to the demonstration do you? Is is really inconceivable to you that out of over 300 million Americans, some 35,000 or so cared enough to travel to Washington to express their concern about something they believe will be a disaster for this country and the world? If so, you really need to expand your horizons. On the other hand, it is a certainty that all the shills pushing for the pipeline are paid by big oil, although the payments to Congressmen are of course called "campaign contributions".
And how do you figure that Obama "dragged his [Buffet's] name through the mud"? Buffet has written opinion pieces and provided interviews that show his position to be just as Obama's brief mentions portrayed.
These people are NUTS. They have no real facts, and are blowing more hot air and producing more dangerous emissions than any pipe line. Those people must have a lot of money to be able to take the bread out of the mouths of people who will earn real money putting that pipeline in and maintaining it.
All this pipeline will do is carry the oil FASTER and SAFER than the railroads and trucks do now. Ignorant nut jobs all of them.
That's wrong Steven. Just for starters, the pipeline will not be safe in hurricane alley. The design is too cheap and will be easily wrecked by storms. The result will be ruined land. People who own land there don't want it. It is being forced upon them by the part of our government that is in the pocket of the oil industry.
You don't believe in global warming either, right?
Steven, have you checked this company and its track record for spills?
No need to buy into the slick, and comforting, ads that run on TV.
Steve, it isn't a choice between the pipeline or trains and trucks, it's between the pipeline and NOTHING. Without the pipeline the tar sand oil will stay in the sand where it belongs.
okie joe
That is flat out wrong. The Tar Sand will be processed and shipped somewhere else if it isn't shipped here. The Canadians are in talks with China and other Asian markets. Markets that we sell to. So WE LOSE if that happens.
okie joe: Wrong. The Canadian company that has developed the tar sands has already said that if they can't transport their product to Texas, they will build a pipeline to Seattle, where it will be loaded onto tankers and transported to China.
As for spills, it seems to me that the safety record of pipelines is pretty good. Certainly, it there had been any major mishaps, especially with the Alaska pipeline, we would have heard all about it.
Actually, I remember all of the terrible predictions of one environmental disaster after another when the Alaska pipeline was being debated. They never really materialized, did they? At least not as predicted.
Hey, Steven....just where do you get your "facts?"
slodon,You're right, they are talking to China, that's where the oil was bound for in the first place.
Easy Steven100.
The people who are against the Keystone pipe line are against everything. We know that sections of the pipeline have been carring Canada Tar Sands oil for years. The big deal now is all about Keystone wanting to put a bigger pipe in a more direct line that the current pipe line.
All this discussion about the US not getting any benefit from the Pipeline is just crap. The arguement is that it will only create temporry jobs during the build cycle and a few jobs after maintenance. I simply ask where is the heavy Tar Sands oil going to be refined and by who. Yep, Illinois and Texas will be the refining states but who cares about those 500 perminate jobs and the additionl taxes the refinerys will generate..
The United States will not need the Tar Sands oil because we will be oil independent in 7 - 8 years.
I assume someone will notice that the new Keystone Pipeline goes pretty close to the new Oil fields in Montana. Maybe we could just run a short feeder line over to that oil field and send the oil via pipeline instead of by rail which Mr. Buffett owns. I suspect the transportation cost of Oil via pipeline would be much less than by rail car.
Just my thoughts.
A bunch of angry socialists protesting against capitalism......very simple...
No, gerry. Protesting against further dependence on the dirtiest fuel around: tar sands. These people are concerned about the health of the planet and so should you. Everything you need to stay alive comes from it. Oil and gas are not included in that list. Those are needs we created in recent history.
sialia, tell me how life would be without it.
We have all been listening to talk of solar energy since the Carter administration. Maybe someday solar will be a big part of our lives. But today, in 2013, the engine of prosperity is the internal combustion engine, and it runs on gasoline. When you act to restrict America's access to petroleum, you damage the country.
The government raises taxes, interferes with oil production, interferes with coal production, shuts down agriculture in the San Juaquin valley, raids the Gibson guitar company, and then they say: "Where did all the jobs go."
Investment, and the jobs that go with it, goes where it's wanted.
Against the pipeline, go dig and live in a cave.
Millions didn't
Millions got active via the net. There are far more people against this pipeline than the 40K who got to Washington, count on it.
And what do you suppose "the net" runs on? Solar energy? Let me guess. You have your laptop hooked up to a solar panel.
Washington (CNN) - A majority of Americans, including a plurality of Democrats, think the government should approve the building of the controversial Keystone XL pipeline, according to a new national survey.
A Gallup poll released Thursday indicates 57% of the public says the Obama administration should give the go ahead for the pipeline's construction, with 29% disagreeing and 14% unsure.
You were saying Sialia..............And according to liberals any more then 50% is a "mandate".
brief math lession. There are 330,000,000 americans, in rough numbers. Lets assume that 33% are not yet of voting age. (probably an over-estimation, but it makes the math simpler) so that means there are 220,000,000 americans of voting age. Your own post puts the disapproval rating at 29%. Therefore 63,800,000 are against it. 63,800,000 is greater than 40,000. Sialia said "there are far more people against this pipeline than the 40k who got to Washington, count on it."
I fail to see where she is inaccurate, as you imply.
Dave,
Never questioned the math, only questioned how much additional support there was, and 29% is insignificant.
North Dakota ranchers and farmers have been complaining about damage to their land and water for sometime now. It's simple. Destroy the land, destroy the water---means you DIE. This pipeline will extend from the Canadian border to the Gulf of Mexico, straight through the Great Plains. We raise your beef, grow your corn, furnish milk and butter etc. The money greedy in D.C. want to run the risk for a lousey 6%? (The 6% came from a letter I received from my state senator a while back) Although I"m not a "tree hugger" I do want to eat and live a little bit longer. NO! to the Keystone Pipeline.
This CRACKs me UP. Seriously, when those and you numbnutz stop driving or use any oil related energy then you can complain about all this environment impact. YOU contribute to it when you drive. PERIOD.
Leftist, the only person taking you seriously is you. Shut up.
Samson,, while that may be all well and good, there is no reason to further our dependence on fossils. We need to turn the corner to clean and sustainable energy and so far, it is just easier to keep on doing the same old thing, despite the fact that we KNOW we are ruining the planet in the process.
How F****** dumb is that?
wynm thank god for the midwest. where would be be without them. They are our saviors. crap, where would be be without them. Someone better tell Texas and Florida, that they don't need to raise beef, thats the mid west job.
YWNM: I take your comments seriously, but I find it hard to believe that the pipeline itself presents any special risk to the environment. We already have hundreds of miles of pipelines criss crossing America, and you only hear of a spill very rarely. Even the EPA's research didn't provide any substantive basis for opposing the pipeline on environmental grounds, which is one reason why Obama has been hesitant to kill it, even though that's exactly what his base wants him to do.
Are you a farmer, or an environmental activist? Are your complaints with the pipeline, with the tar sands extraction process, or do you object to the use of tar sands in general?
We heard the same about the Alaskan pipeline, years ago. Liberials just want to raise the price of gas, then when it costs $10 a gallon they can try to make the case for electric vehicles that use batteries and fires to pollute the world.
Man, that kool-aid sure is causing diarrhea of the mouth for leftisfascist. Shame he doesn't really understand what he is talking about. But that is typical of the low informed base of the GOP, always ranting about something they don't understand, and won't read the info that is out there. Guess they have a hard time with FACTS,since they haven't realized they LIED to the American people. Obama is starting his second term, they told us he would be a one term POTUS.
Care to explain that to everyone leftisfacist? Crickets...
http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/globallaborinstitute/research/upload/GLI_KeystoneXL_Reportpdf.pdf
Here's the report that debunked the "thousands of jobs" theory...
So...where is your study then? Written in crayon and stuck to your fridge?
but of course he can't supply a link to it can he?
leftisfascist is a simple moron, of course he cannot provide any proof of any of his statements because they are without substance. Debating with someone of his ilk is a total waste of time sort of like having a debate with your front door.
sallyann, If the Conservatives are rich and run evil companies, how do u justify talking about the low informed ? The majority of the liberals base are poor uneducated low income blacks, spanish and whites. Which category are you in?
Yes we know, Sally Ann, everyone who disagrees with you is ignorant.
Maybe if Sally Ann got her head out of the toilet looking at the so called GOP diarrhea, she could see the facts. The pipeline will create jobs, as pipelines do not build themselves.
The pipeline will increase the the amount of processed oil on the world market, (more product tends to decrease prices).
The Government will get more taxes on the payroll, increased value of crude to product increases and more profit from oil companies. I just wonder how many carbon units were burned up by the protesters going to Washington. Since I dont think they all walked there. They burn gas to complain about making it. I don't hear about Obama's use of Airforce 1 and 2 being used to fly Michelle to one place and him to another part of the country at the same time on seperate vacations.
i am waiting to see leftisfacist's study, i would like to read it
thank you angel for supplying that information and the study strikes to what i have read historically
interesting in particular is that billions of the dollars have already been spent in preparation and that the steel to be produced/supplied will come from india, russia and south korea
so again, for all those believing this is a good job creator, tell me how many jobs will it create long term
tell me how many of them will be outside of texas because based upon my reading and assessment of the final employment, the jobs will be in texas and not the other states. what made me laugh is that it even stated that there wouldnt be a need to have people move with their families to the states where the so called jobs would be created and that the local medical services would be sufficient should anyone get hurt on the job since there wasnt a need for a great influx of persons.
another area that i really yucked it up at was where it said it would really only hire maybe 10-11% of the local people to do the jobs
lets think people, when the steel industry went under it was because the production went overseas and the owners were able to make a greater profit. i am all for business making profit, but wow, to move overseas to make a significantly greater profit at the welfare of the american people. go visit pittsburgh places like elizabeth and clairton (spelling may not be correct), but those were once thriving steel producing areas where families moved and they are now desolate of the steel mills but families remain. how about detroit and well there is too much to state about detroit because i would be here all day, but you understand.
by the way 300 michael, people complain all the time about the president and the first lady flying around yet i didnt hear anyone complaining regarding any of the previous presidents. is there something different about them that stands out from their predecessors. i dont hear the people screaming to impeach bush, cheney, and the others who engaged in frivolous war costing the lives of thousands of american soldiers, hundreds of thousands of those affected and the american people having to pay for the post traumatic stress disorders, the surgeries, the equipment et al needed for those who fought for us that went into a war under false pretenses. tell me where is the bloody outcry
we as Americans need to start seeing and asking the hard questions. if you dont understand something, ask a question, do not just blindly accept it. i wont go further into detail about these issues since the base of this one is the pipeline and i hate to go off tangent however we need to become more aware, read more, put down the games, stop looking at only one channel for all of our info since one perspective can be rather biased. lets learn about the who/what/where/when/why, then assess, then act.
lets be a United States of America before we are no longer
Freakin environmental nut jobs. Drill baby drill, bury them pipelines, anything to p o the radicals.
These "radicals" you speak of... they're actually the moderates. Visit any high school in America and ask the kids what they think about fossil fuels.
Your time is up. The new world is not stopping and waiting for you to get on board, either.
Don't -
No, they are not the moderates as you claim. THe moderates want the jobs so that they can take care of their families. It is the nut-job environmental terrorists and ignorant students who do not want the pipeline. Get a clue!
These highschool kids will be of legal majority in about 3 to 6 years and they will vote. Do not write them off as irrelevant.
Wrong, Tammy. Sorry.