Talk:Sun Dance

NB: The American Indian community is sensitive to cultural appropriation of their traditions. This article summarizes an anthropological perspective and does not provide specific guidance on authentic ceremonies.

minor edit

I'm going to change the term "early 70s" to "mid 70s" in the sentence "since Jimmy Carter's presidency in the early 1970s." "early" makes one think of 1970 to 1973ish(the dance was performed during the '73 wounded knee siege while still illegal) where as "mid" brings one to the middle 70s where you find 75/76 and the first year of carter's presidency. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greengrapes (talk • contribs) 03:35, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Comments

I've read that photographs aren't allowed to be taken at Sun Dances, which is backed up by the lack of photographs on the article. If someone can confirm this as true, could you please add that piece of information to the article?

It's true, the ceremony is kept sacred and secret by there not being allowed video or still cameras.Not even a sketch pad is allowed.Also, the main illustration here isn't even close to a sundance. The ceremony is kept sacred and secret by there not being allowed video or still cameras.Not even a sketch pad is allowed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.16.227.99 (talk) 13:44, 15 April 2007

If it really is true that photographs are not permitted at Sun Dances, then I do not understand why I've seen so many of them being published in books? Or that I've even been able to see it on television? From what I'm hearing now I just take it that some Native Americans will prohibit it and others will have no problem with this. There at least is plenty of visual documentation of Sun Dances and the sweat lodge ceronomies that preceed it. Theo, Amsterdam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.162.133.112 (talk) 10:54, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Biased

I'm doing a project, and it doesn't help when Wikipedia's page on the subject of my project uses language clearly supportive of the Sun Dance ritual. Not that it's bad to be supportive of it, but things like 'subjagating Indians' when talking about certain rituals that have been outlawed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lemniwinks (talk • contribs) 01:49, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Well as an American Indian from the Mattaponi . I find it insulting that you don't consider it "Subjagation" when a government of any type "Outlaws" a religious practice just because it isn't inline with that religious governments view. I've done Sundance and wouldn't trade it for anything . As for there being photos & video of Sundance Ceremony ; if there is, then it wasn't an "Authentic" or "Real" ceremony by real indians . Thomas Greywolf - wepunkwteme@yahoo.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.166.1.3 (talk) 21:21, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Some issues

the article has many factual flaws. Women can and do pierce on their chest. Some people pierce but do not tear the piercing out, this is called doing push ups.

NO pictures, sketches or videos are supposed to be taken of the ritual, people who are meant to know will eventually go to a sundance. The people who do are commodifying the culture. Every sun dance is different, because the sun dance chief creates their sun dance based on a vision and the direction of their spiritual mentors.

This whole article is very weak because anyone who knows anything about a sundance and cares about it is not going to write about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexrevpaterson (talk • contribs) 21:15, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Sun Dance vs sun dance

Which letters are capitalized in that expression? Twipley (talk) 20:23, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Personally I think the correct form is "sun dance" -- any objections? Twipley (talk) 00:47, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I've seen every imaginable variation. I don't think there's a standard agreement, even among people from the same Nation. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 00:56, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

OK, I just checked some writings by authorized ceremonial people who have the Sun Dance. While there are variations (some use "Sundance"), I'd say "Sun Dance" is the form to use. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 01:10, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Imagery

Per multiple complaints, I'm removing any photographs, or links to photographs/videos that claim to be taken at real ceremonies. I'm leaving the drawing for now, though I have mixed feelings about it. I think the gathering photo is acceptable as it is taken from outside the arbor. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 01:25, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Please do. I also like the disclaimer that you have been adding to sensitive religious article – thanks! -Uyvsdi (talk) 23:10, 22 November 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Disclaimer

I have a problem with the disclaimer. Wikipedia doesn't have disclaimers, for one thing, and Wikipedia isn't a how-to, so it's also redundant. Where is the discussion on including this in select articles, as you appear to have been doing? Exploding Boy (talk) 23:16, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Someone else added the first one. I thought it was a reasonable thing to do, especially as we have a problem with people posting things about ceremonies (whether or not they know what they're talking about, whether or not they have any understanding of what is and isn't appropriate to post on the Internet). The text for the disclaimer was originally in the text of the lede. Another editor pulled it out and made it a topnote. We may not have much (any?) precendence for this on WP, but it seems a way to deal with the conflict between those who want anything and everything posted about ceremonies, and those who would rather there be no articles on these topics at all. Slàn, - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 00:20, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

There's a wide range of disclaimers for wikipedia articles. The Sun Dance is a highly sacred ceremony and much information about it is not culturally appropriate to share with the general public. In fact, non-Indians have been barred from attending Sun Dances among Lakota tribes. A precedent on Wikipedia for not including photos of the Sun Dance is the conscientious lack of False Face Society mask images. -Uyvsdi (talk) 00:59, 23 November 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Not really. See Wikipedia:No disclaimers in articles. All Wikipedia articles have a disclaimer: it is located at the bottom of this page and every page on the site. Other disclaimers are to be removed. What you seem to be attempting to do is to prevent people from adding certain information to the article. You could place this hidden at the top of the article, but the better approach would be to engage in discussion and reach consensus on what should and should not be in the article here on the discussion page.

Wikipedia is not a how-to guide; this is a policy that has long been established, so there should be zero controversy with removing how-tos from this or any article.

As for the problem with "people posting things about ceremonies (whether or not they know what they're talking about, whether or not they have any understanding of what is and isn't appropriate," that is a general issue with Wikipedia; anyone can edit articles, and not every editor is an expert. Again, the way to deal with this is via discussion on the talk page.

Regarding some people who would rather there be no articles on these topics at all, there is someone who feels that way about every Wikipedia article, but we don't select our content on those grounds. For instance, we have articles about other sacred ceremonies, and about things some people find highly offensive (including the article on the Jyllands-Posten cartoons, which has reproductions of all the images in question. As for False Face Society mask images, a parallel on Wikipedia might be the Mohammad article: Muslims generally consider images of Mohammad to be taboo, yet the article contains several of them. Exploding Boy (talk) 01:15, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

The current consensus is that templates that warn about objectionable content should "generally" be removed. This is not a content warning; it's more about acknowledging cultural and religious beliefs/standards - which is very relevant to an understanding of Sun Dance. Perhaps we should include more content about not filming or writing about ceremonies, integrating it back into the text the way it was before it was converted into a hatnote. I don't think simply removing the content is the answer. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 17:39, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

We can include well-sourced information in the article if it's needed. Exploding Boy (talk) 19:03, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Article content

A problem with the current version of the article is that it doesn't explain what the Sun Dance is or why it is performed, but simply describes it as a "religious ceremony." Also, most of the article seems to be concerned with Canadian issues, with about 90% of the body of the article covering this. Someone with no knowledge of Sun Dances would come away from this article having really learned nothing about it. Exploding Boy (talk) 01:20, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

The article gives reasons and general descriptions. To go beyond that would get into "how-to". - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 17:39, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't really. Besides a brief commentary on piercing, the article only says it's a religious ceremony; what for? There's really no description at all. See for instance the article on Catholic Mass. There needs to be more substance. Exploding Boy (talk) 19:03, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

The details given of the Catholic Mass are public things that can be observed by anyone who walks into a church. Anyone off the street can observe these things. In contrast, an authentic Sun Dance is a private ceremony. There is very little written down that is accurate, and this is on purpose. It's not intended for outsiders. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:24, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Nevertheless, the article must include more than vague comments and descriptions. Exploding Boy (talk) 21:55, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia standards notwithstanding, the nature of this ceremony is such that the more knowledgeable a person is about it, the less likely they would ever post anything about it on the internet. It's just not going to happen. -Uyvsdi (talk) 22:14, 3 December 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Different Ceremony

In a Man called Horse, the ceremony depicted was a rendering of the Mandan Okipa ceremony (see George Catlin's 2 - vol book on Indians of N.A.), not the plains sun dance, which one would expect given the tribe's identity in the movie was Cheyenne/Sioux? Randall J. Brown (Comment moved from article - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 21:52, 3 December 2009 (UTC))

This article needs a lot of work!

Anyone interested in learning about the Sun Dance is not likely to learn much from this article. It's also very unbalanced (giving a lot of info about a few specific things and virtually no info about other things that I think many people would see as being more important), poorly organized, biased (using words like "desecration" to refer to the idea of non-natives attending the Sun Dance), and seems inaccurate to me. For one, the intro has a big thing about non-natives being banned from the ceremony which I don't think is true. I know a lot of non-native people who go to Sun Dance, as dancers, singers, and as supporters. It's not like just anyone can (or should) go, you of course have to be respectful, committed and invited by someone, but there certainly doesn't appear to be any rule about non-natives going. So is that part of the article referring to a decree that has since been changed? Or does it vary between the different dance locations? Or what? It also says that in Canada the Sun Dance goes by other names, but it is well-known in Canada as the Sun Dance. Is content for this article just extremely difficult to come by because of Wikipedia's policy on reliable published sources? Is there a huge problem with writing a proper article because of people who say that would be exposing sacred cultural secrets? There's got to be some way to at least make it a little better than it currently is, even if we can't add many more details. MsBatfish (talk) 02:54, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Smoking template

I pulled the smoking template off the page since secular tobacco habits has little or nothing to do with the Sun Dance. Template:Wines doesn't link to the Eucharist article. Smoking tobacco is part of an overwhelming majority of indigenous American religious ceremonies; however, smoking tobacco is not central to Sun Dance. -Uyvsdi (talk) 23:54, 15 May 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Lindy hop which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 07:31, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Lindy Hop which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 17:46, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

I'll fix the cats. Sacred ceremonies that involve some movement should not be in the same category as social or performance dance styles. - CorbieV^☊☼ 18:52, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Poles in mythology

Now we have a new article Poles in mythology, Please see and include suitable feature of sun dance, if any, in article Poles in mythology

Rgds

Mahitgar (talk) 06:04, 4 October 2015 (UTC)