Template talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine

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Ships[edit]

Hi fellow wikipedians! I was just wondering if the 'ships' list is needed. If we feel it is, it can probably get it's own sublist. Please comment opinions below, so we can get WP:CONSENSUS Tomorrow and tomorrow (talk) 02:02, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree as I feel like the list will grow longer. If damaged civilian ships are to be included like Millennial Spirit and Namura Queen, then we are already missing Yasa Jupiter, Banglar Samriddhi and Helt. Rinbro (talk) 19:50, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, I'm going to remove it, and if anyone disagrees they can come talk about it.Tomorrow and tomorrow (talk) 22:16, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I made a new page for the information & have linked it from the template: List of ships damaged during the Russo-Ukrainian War Rinbro (talk) 23:32, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Much thanks, that is a much better solution I think (won't get clogged up), and makes it very analogous to the aircraft page.Tomorrow and tomorrow (talk) 23:57, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Minsk agreements[edit]

I don't see the Minsk agreements in the table. It seems to be a solid basis for coming negociations.[1] Should we add them, create a "Background" row ? Yug (talk) 🐲 00:32, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'd support this and put the 'relations' articles in there too Tomorrow and tomorrow (talk) 00:54, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've now down this. The 'other' row was empty so I removed it, but I fully anticipate it will get filled again. Tomorrow and tomorrow (talk) 05:04, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://truthout.org/articles/chomsky-outdated-us-cold-war-policy-worsens-ongoing-russia-ukraine-conflict/

Organisations response[edit]

I don't think we need the organisations response row, at least as it currently is. The international legion is made of the public and Kletocapture is run by the US government so really should be in 'States'. The IT army is part of Ukriane's forces so I don't think they quite fit there either. If this section was to exist, it should be for NGOs and sports organisations, etc Tomorrow and tomorrow (talk) 00:58, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It was originally a sublist of States, but another editor moved it to its own section. I am open to moving it back. InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:53, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@InfiniteNexus: I'm happy with that, though tbh I still don't see who those 3 articles really fit together. Tomorrow and tomorrow (talk) 05:07, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. InfiniteNexus (talk) 06:43, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cell widths[edit]

Does anyone know how to make the cell widths consistent? Would make the template look more presentable. Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:27, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They are consistent within each sub-group. Making them equal across sub-groups would make the substructure harder to follow. The defaults are usually (though not always) chosen for a good reason, keeping in mind that readers will use a huge variety of different browsers and screen sizes and resolutions. Boud (talk) 18:17, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Huh, ok. I disagree re: " Making them equal across sub-groups would make the substructure harder to follow". Just add a line break between "Northeastern" and "Ukraine" for "Northeastern Ukraine" and I think a consistent width across subgroups would look sharp. Happy editing! ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:46, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Equipment[edit]

Hello the team,
The page Weapons of the Russo-Ukrainian War now accepts contents related to the 2022 war and could be integrated into this template. Yug (talk) 🐲 16:50, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bayraktar[edit]

Yeah, let's have a link to a non-existant article on the English Wikipedia and to justify that add an interwiki link to a project written in a completely different script that most of us can't come close to reading. How convenient and constructive of us! ~StyyxTalk? ^-^ 16:15, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ignorance of non-roman scripts by some en.Wikipedians is not a valid argument for excluding a cross-language link. The knowledge is encyclopedic, and by providing the link, we encourage multi-lingual people to start the en.Wikipedia equivalent articles. The rich, healthy and technically efficient interlingual communications among the different language Wikipedias are one of Wikipedia's incredible strengths. Спасибі! Boud (talk) 00:15, 12 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

List of people of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine[edit]

There's a minor edit war going on regarding people with en.Wikipedia articles who are associated in some way or other with the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine: list just a few key people, or all associated people? There exists Category:Lists of people and even Category:Lists of lists of people, so if someone wanted to start an article such as List of people assoicated with the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, then that could become a link in the current People heading, and some of the people less notably associated with the invasion and its consequences could be removed from the navbox. A consensus name would have to be chosen: "associated with" is rather long-winded, but "of" risks sounding like these are people who organised/supported/carried out the invasion (some are, some aren't). Even "associated with" is a bit risky. Maybe "in" or "during", though then the meaning would sound weird. Better ask for advice at Wikipedia talk:Stand-alone lists where people are active in making/editing WP:STANDALONE list articles and could probably recommend a name likely to obtain consensus. Boud (talk) 15:10, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As I explained twice in my edit summaries, I firmly belive this navbox should not list every single person associated with the conflict, or else the template would become too crammed and messy. If we look at the articles that the IP insists on including, we can see that they all contain few or no sentences regarding the invasion, not even a full paragraph in some cases. To break it down:
I am not opposed to the idea of a List of people assoicated with the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine article, but first I would like the IP to explain their reasoning that all play a substantial role. InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:45, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't matter how many sentences Wikipedia' editors wrote in articles about persons. It is a very strange logic (!) to take this into consideration. In a real life, all listed persons play a key role in the conflict. For example:
Finally, about top 10 key people are listed for both side, similar to navbox for War in Donbass, the first phase of war. Per current practice, the same lists of lead fugures (top 10 or top 20) are in the many other such templates: Template:Chechen wars, Template:Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict etc. 92.113.168.56 (talk) 17:54, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The purpose of this navbox is to aid readers in finding articles with information regarding the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Say a reader opens up this navbox and clicks on Denys Shmyhal, expecting to find information on his involvement in the conflict. Instead, they find nothing. Yes, he's the Prime Minister of Ukraine. But his article doesn't provide the reader with any additional information about the invasion, which happens to be the very purpose of this navbox. WP:NAVBOX explicitly states, The subject of the template should be mentioned in every article. That puts the final nail in the coffin for 5 of the articles I listed above. InfiniteNexus (talk) 19:39, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Criterias for inclusion are not depends from editors work. Never. 92.113.168.56 (talk) 20:18, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As InfiniteNexus said, WP:NAVBOX explicitly states, The subject of the template should be mentioned in every article. If you can find public, reliably sourced information (Ukrainian or Russian language sources are allowed, although English language ones are preferred) showing how Denys Shmyhal is involved in this event, then that can be added to his article and the inclusion here would become better justified. I have no idea whether it's better or worse in terms of security risks for Shmyhal's actions (presumably in organising resistance against the invasion) to be listed at Denys Shmyhal. If it's better that his involvement remains non-public for the moment, then his article can wait to be linked in the navbox after the Russian forces leave Ukraine and it's safe for that knowledge to become public. Similarly for the other articles. Boud (talk) 02:22, 15 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that user:Boud starts separate discussions about each name that s/he wants to remove from the template.--Getting consensus about removing the Ukrainian PM from the template, is likely an uphill battle. 89.8.146.21 (talk) 10:38, 15 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So you're suggesting that we go against wiki policy?? InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Be bold! Are you suggesting to not Be bold? 89.8.146.21 (talk) 13:01, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Horlivka and Chuhuiv[edit]

46.211.152.40, as you continue to refuse to discuss your edit, I will start this discussion for you. No one is denying that Horlivka is in Eastern Ukraine or Chuhuiv is in Northeastern Ukraine. But as I have explained, this navbox must match their articles and the List of military engagements during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine article, neither of which state they are part of the Eastern Ukraine or Northeastern Ukraine offensives. If you have a problem with that, I suggest you raise this issue on the aforementioned articles' talk pages to have them amended, instead of edit-warring or making snarky edit summaries. Pinging @EpicWikiLad as well in case they have any comments. InfiniteNexus (talk) 22:27, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And try to see the map before your edits. Any other questions? 46.211.152.40 (talk) 22:44, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your response. See, if you had explained your reasoning here early on instead of edit-warring with cryptic edit summaries (e.g. see map), this could have been resolved much faster. I will adjust the articles accordingly, unless there is objection from other users. InfiniteNexus (talk) 22:59, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
on my opinion, go on, i also started to think that maybe horlivka, chuhuiv, etc should be part of something and not only "other", but, next time, explain more the reason behind your edit instead of simple words.EpicWikiLad (talk) 23:01, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to point out the List of military engagements during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has kept the airstrikes out of an offensive and inconclusive. So those should not be moved into an offensive category. Also, the Horlivka offensive is considered a stale offensive. Sources described it as an offensive rather than a battle. I am not objecting moving it into an offensive category, for now, but if the offensive picks up new area's it must be separated. Elijahandskip (talk) 23:06, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, so we're not classifying Chuhuiv as part of the Northeastern Ukraine offensive now? InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:13, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
im going to make a proposal, basically, move horlivka to eastern ukraine, move snake island into southern ukraine, change "other" to "attacks on air bases and installations" and move the bombings on civilians to a new cateogory, what do you guys think?EpicWikiLad (talk) 23:15, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(Edit conflict) Not saying that. Just saying the air base attack, as stated earlier by 46.211.152.40, was a "prelude for Battle of Kharkiv (2022)". None of the other airbase attacks are listed with an offensive, so I sort of see a pattern. Changing that would probably require each one to be assessed. Elijahandskip (talk) 23:15, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So you don't think the air bases should be filed under any offensive. Okay. (By the way, I see you have reverted the IP's edit again. I don't think that's a good idea because we don't want any more edit-warring.) InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:22, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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