Wikipedia:Featured article review

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Reviewing featured articles
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This page is for the review and improvement of featured articles that may no longer meet the featured article criteria. FAs are held to the current standards regardless of when they were promoted.

There are three requisite stages in the process, to which all users are welcome to contribute.

Raise issues at article Talk:

  • In this step, concerned editors attempt to directly resolve issues with the existing community of article editors, and to informally improve the article. Articles in this step are not listed on this page.

Featured article review (FAR)

  • In this step, possible improvements are discussed without declarations of "keep" or "delist". The aim is to improve articles rather than to demote them. Nominators must specify the featured article criteria that are at issue and should propose remedies. The ideal review would address the issues raised and close with no change in status.
  • Reviews can improve articles in various ways: articles may need updating, formatting, and general copyediting. More complex issues, such as a failure to meet current standards of prose, comprehensiveness, factual accuracy, and neutrality, may also be addressed.
  • The featured article removal coordinators—Nikkimaria, Casliber, DrKay, and Maralia—determine either that there is consensus to close during this second stage, or that there is insufficient consensus to do so and so therefore the nomination should be moved to the third stage.

Featured article removal candidate (FARC)

  • An article is never listed as a removal candidate without first undergoing a review. In this third stage, participants may declare "keep" or "delist", supported by substantive comments, and further time is provided to overcome deficiencies.
  • Reviewers who declare "delist" should be prepared to return towards the end of the process to strike out their objections if they have been addressed.
  • The featured article removal coordinators determine whether there is consensus for a change in the status of a nomination, and close the listing accordingly.

Each stage typically lasts two to three weeks, or longer where changes are ongoing and it seems useful to continue the process. Nominations are moved from the review period to the removal list, unless it is very clear that editors feel the article is within criteria. Given that extensions are always granted on request, as long as the article is receiving attention, editors should not be alarmed by an article moving from review to the removal candidates' list.

To contact the FAR coordinators, please leave a message on the FAR talk page, or use the {{@FAR}} notification template elsewhere.

Older reviews are stored in the archive.

Table of Contents – This page: Purge cache, Checklinks, Check redirects, Dablinks

Featured content:

Today's featured article (TFA):

Featured article tools:

Nominating an article for FAR

The number of FARs that can be placed on the page is limited as follows:

  1. For articles on the Unreviewed Featured Articles list, no more than three nominations per week and twelve per month.
  2. For all other articles, one nomination at a time per nominator, unless permission for more is given by a FAR coordinator.

Nominators are strongly encouraged to assist in the process of improvement; they should not nominate articles that are featured on the main page (or have been featured there in the previous three days) and should avoid segmenting review pages. Three to six months is regarded as the minimum time between promotion and nomination here, unless there are extenuating circumstances such as a radical change in article content.

  1. Before nomination, raise issues at talk page of the article. Attempt to directly resolve issues with the existing community of article editors, and to informally improve the article. Articles in this step are not listed on this page.
  2. Place {{subst:FAR}} at the top of the talk page of the nominated article. Write "FAR listing" in the edit summary box. Click on "Save page".
  3. From the FAR template, click on the red "initiate the review" link. You will see pre-loaded information; please leave that text.
  4. Below the preloaded title, write which users and projects you'll notify (see step 6 below), and your reason(s) for nominating the article, specifying the FA criterion/criteria that are at issue, then click on "Save page".
  5. Click here, and place your nomination at the top of the list of nominated articles, {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/name of nominated article/archiveN}}, filling in the exact name of the nominated article and the archive number N. Click on "Save page".
  6. Notify relevant parties by adding {{subst:FARMessage|ArticleName|alt=FAR subpage}} ~~~~ (for example, {{subst:FARMessage|Superman|alt=Superman/archive1}} ~~~~) to relevant talk pages (insert article name). Relevant parties include main contributors to the article (identifiable through article stats script), the editor who originally nominated the article for Featured Article status (identifiable through the Featured Article Candidate link in the Article Milestones), and any relevant WikiProjects (identifiable through the talk page banners, but there may be other Projects that should be notified). The message at the top of the FAR should indicate who you have notified.

Featured article reviews[edit]

Exoplanet[edit]

Notified: JorisvS, Drbogdan, PlanetStar, ‎Astredita,‎ Kevin Nelson, WikiProject Astronomy

This article no longer appears to meet criteria 1, 2b, 2c or 4 of Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. There are several very short sections and paragraphs consisting of single sentences; some sections are merely lists of individual miscellanea. The table of contents is too extensive, and the citations are not formatted consistently. For an article that should be written in summary style, it is over-long with too many individual specific examples that should be summarized to give a more general picture. DrKay (talk) 08:26, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

This article about the now major astronomy topic deserves it once we address these issues, like expanding short sections and summarizing it. PlanetStar 03:33, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
@PlanetStar: Please note that "keep" and "delist" are only used in FARC (removal candidates) and not here in FAR (review). As noted above, "In this step, possible improvements are discussed without declarations of "keep" or "delist". The aim is to improve articles rather than to demote them." From a quick glance, it does in fact look like it's much too long. If it can be condensed adequately without removing anything essential, I think it has a good chance at staying featured. Tonystewart14 (talk) 02:47, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

"Relativistic beaming – Relativistic beaming measures the observed flux from the star due to its motion. The brightness of the star changes as the planet moves closer or further away from its host star." Is this name correct? I thought relativistic beaming was for matter moving at near light speed. It might be better to use 'Doppler beaming' unless this use of 'Relativistic' can be confirmed. Praemonitus (talk) 21:14, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Both terms are used, as well as others. The effect is very small even for close-in planets. The description in the article is poor, though. Lithopsian (talk) 21:35, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Okay yes, I found one instance that used the term in the context of a planet,[1] compared to many using "doppler beaming". Praemonitus (talk) 03:21, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
More generally - I see that some work has started to improve the article, but I'm struggling to see how it will be brought back to FA level. As DrKay describes, the problems go far beyond simply being too long. I guess give it a little time and see how it goes. Lithopsian (talk) 21:39, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Comment: As a suggestion, the planet article tree can (and does) cover many of these topics. This article should focus on aspects specific to exoplanets: a high level discovery history plus the various detection methods, observation techniques, and nomenclature. Elements of the article that are highly dynamic, such as new discoveries, should be spun off to a child article, leaving just a summary here. Praemonitus (talk) 15:43, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Fritz the Cat (film)[edit]

Notified: Secret Saturdays, WikiProject Film, WikiProject Animation, WikiProject Comics

This is a 2007 promotion that is the work of a banned editor (Sugar Bear) and has not really been maintained since that editor's departure. Specifically:

  • 1a) The article contains poor writing ("As Krantz began to prepare the paperwork, preparation began on a pitch presentation...") and writing of an improper tone ("He decides to ditch his bore of a life"), and requires copyediting once the content issues are resolved.
  • 1b, possibly 4) The plot section has been altered heavily since the promoted version, and I'm no longer sure it accurately describes the plot of the film. It needs to be compared with the old version and with the film itself.
  • 1c) The Reception section is not well-researched and likely does not represent the literature out there on the subject. The Critical reception subheading has had a maintenance tag since November 2014.
  • There are uncited passages (see last para of Rating).

Since the principal editor of the page is banned, I'm hoping someone else who is familiar with the film can help get it back to standard. --Laser brain (talk) 16:43, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Curly Turkey, you're hot on animation and all it covers: is this one you can cover? - SchroCat (talk) 15:12, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

I'll take a peek, though I have to admit I haven't watched the movie all the way through—I love Crumb's comics, but the movie bored me. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:06, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
The prose needs a lot of work, and I'm surprised at the lack of background—we learn virtually nothing about Robert Crumb, the underground comix movement, the Fritz comics (some of Crumb's most prominent work), nor do we learn anything about who Bakshi was or where he was coming from. It mentions how Crumb "later drew a comic in which the Fritz character was killed off", but not that the strip appeared immediately after the film came out in direct response to the film (the strip is called "Fritz the Cat—Superstar" and satires his rising fame). Fails on comprehensivenss. I'll see if I can motivate myself to fix some of this, but I'm afraid a lot of research will have to be done to determine just how comprehensive (or not) it is. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:39, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
The closer I look, the more work this article seems to need. A lot of the text I can't even understand. Example:
  • "Bakshi says that he "started to get giddy" when he "suddenly was able to get a pig that was a cop, and this particular other pig was Jewish, and I thought, 'Oh my God—a Jewish pig?' These were major steps forward ..."
This line was gibberish to me—why is he getting "giddy" over a Jewish pig? Is he a bigot? Is this some bizarre countercultural humour? Click through to the Bakshi article and find out he's Jewish—"Aha!" I think. Then I read it again and I'm still in the dark.
I'll still take a whack at this thing, but I'm not sure I've got the motivation to bring it up to standard within whatever timeframe there may be. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:27, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
I'm never sure of the timeframe, but I don't think that there is ever any rush (within reason), as long as there is progress toward improvement. Nikkimaria, what's the normal process with FAR - it's not an area I'm familiar with. - SchroCat (talk) 09:20, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
That's a fair summary - if you need time to work you'll have it, within reason. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:31, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Covent Garden[edit]

Notified: SilkTork, WikiProject London

This article is scheduled to be featured on the main page on 30 June, but it's a complete mess. The introduction is five paragraphs long and comprises a mix of tourist guide-style material and an extended paraphrase of a single source detailing the history of the area; the history section, which should and sometimes does have that information, is poor; the geography and landmarks sections are completely tangled, again frequently containing material that should be classed as history; the rest of the article is a hodgepodge of trivia and unnecessary detail: the stage of the Royal Opera House is roughly 15 metres square, the collection of the Transport Museum had previously been held at Syon Park and Clapham, The Harp has been owned by the landlady since 2010. Et cetera, et cetera. The writing is of poor quality throughout, largely as a result of how disorganised the article is. Here's an example: Platform access is only by lift or stairs; until improvements to the exit gates in 2007, due to high passenger numbers (16 million annually), London Underground had to advise travellers to get off at Leicester Square and walk the short distance (the tube journey at less than 300 yards is London's shortest) to avoid the congestion. The reader of this article, once they get their breath back after trying to read that in one go, will recall that the 300 yard factlet had already been presented to them irrelevantly in the introduction. It's not worth trying to scrub through this piece and spot and fix the issues in time for it to be featured again; this is C-class work and needs significant rewriting before it goes anywhere near the main page.  — Scott • talk 22:55, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

  • Comment. Since FAR generally requires more warning than this on the article's talk page, I'm guessing this will be rejected at FAR ... but if anyone here has time, it would be great if you could offer opinions before June 30, regardless of what happens to the FAR. - Dank (push to talk) 23:52, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
    • I brought it directly here because the article has had barely any regular editors and is due to be featured so soon. If this incredibly bureaucratic process rejects it because of that, well... the less said about that, the better.  — Scott • talk 23:57, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
      • You are also welcome (and recommended) to have a go at tightening the prose yourself ("Before nomination, ... Attempt to directly resolve issues with the existing community of article editors, and to informally improve the article.") — Chris Woodrich (talk) 10:21, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
      • And btw, this hasn't actually been transcluded to WP:FAR, so it's just us chatting at the moment. And note that SilkTork said on his talk page that he'll be looking for problems over the next few days. - Dank (push to talk) 11:11, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
        • Oops. Done.  — Scott • talk 20:33, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment - I think a question we should answer sooner than later is whether it's salvageable in time for TFA or if that slot should be rescheduled. --Laser brain (talk) 20:41, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment - I haven't worked on this article for years, so all my notes are gone. I did have it watchlisted to keep it tidy, but took it off my watchlist some time ago. I think I last made an edit about a year ago. I am in the same position, therefore, as anyone else looking at the article, and would need to do the same things. Because of personal circumstances I rarely have the time or energy to spend long periods on Wikipedia, so my time here is random and uncertain. Sometimes I can spend a few days on an article, but rarely at a high level. It will mostly be obvious tidying up. I will take a look at Scott's concerns, though I would urge him in the meantime to get stuck in and do the copy-editing of that sentence he finds over-complex, and to sort the lead into a more acceptable number of paragraphs. Also, Scott, it would help those who are to work on the article if you could more clearly list the areas you feel need attention. You mention the number of paragraphs in the lead, one sentence that is over-long, and that you disagree with the arrangement and value of certain pieces of information, but in general your comment comes over as "I don't like this", rather more than helpful and constructive criticism. SilkTork ✔Tea time 09:33, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
You are wrong on almost every point. I would suggest not involving yourself in this any further, out of kindness to our readers.  — Scott • talk 16:59, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
Can you be a bit more constructive, Scott? I have seen some minor areas of concern which I am addressing, but other than that you dislike the lead having X number of paragraphs, and one sentence was too complex to parse easily, you haven't given us much to work on. At this point I'm not seeing a valid reason for this "review", and from the timing, the carelessness, the mistakes, and the language, this simply seems disruptive. I am willing to work on the article to address concerns, and I have already done some tidying up, but I am not seeing the cause for concern. At this point the article is substantially as it was when it was accepted as featured, and is up to date with relevant changes to the area, and with current Wikipedia policies and procedures. SilkTork ✔Tea time 18:40, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
"Disruptive"? That's Wikipedia Discussion Bingo! I'm out of here. Would say good luck, but luck has got absolutely nothing to do with where you're headed.  — Scott • talk 20:52, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
OK. I've just had a quick look, and it does have areas of concern. Some sourced material has been removed, and some trivia and grammar mistakes inserted ("Covent Garden is a area in London..." is currently the opening sentence). It looks like the article has been fiddled out with since I last looked at it. I'll see what I can do. It may be best to roll it back to the last secure edit, and then look at what positive edits have been done since that date, and reinsert them. SilkTork ✔Tea time 11:52, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
  • SilkTork asked me to comment. I would say roll it back to the version that passed FAC, or the most recent version that SilkTork is happy with, and see whether Scott still has the same concerns. SarahSV (talk) 19:25, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
Judging by Scott's comments I think that Scott sees Silktork's writing as part of the problem. I don't think we can have two parallel versions. My vote would be for looking at the current version as it is already being worked on. Fresh eyes are good, so will look later. Will be in transit for a bit. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:19, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
I can't see a problem with the writing. SarahSV (talk) 20:48, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
Nor I. The version as it stands is pretty much the version that was passed, and several people were involved in copyediting at the time. There has been minor updating is all. Over the past few months, as I had taken it off my watchlist, some errors had been introduced, which I have now corrected. I have looked at the transport section and refined the information regarding the underground station, which now reads better, and I hope satisfies Scott. SilkTork ✔Tea time 09:00, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Scope and Stability The main problem with the article is its scope, which is huge – hundreds of years of history and hundreds of notable buildings and businesses. This is an issue for FA status because featured articles are supposed to be complete. As an example, note that the article has a section about "Pubs and bars" but has nothing much about eating establishments such as restaurants. This district contains numerous notable restaurants including London's oldest restaurant, Rules, several incarnations of the Beefsteak Club and modern institutions such as The Ivy. I have written several articles about such places myself, including Food for Thought, Gaby's Deli, Hawksmoor and Old Slaughter's Coffee House.
It might be feasible to expand the article to include missing aspects such as this but we will then have the problem that FAs are supposed to be stable. The page currently has a banner tag saying that it "is in the process of an expansion or major restructuring" and this indicates that it is not currently stable. I'm not especially bothered about such formalities myself and so will give the page some attention over the coming days, as it approaches the main page.
Andrew D. (talk) 22:53, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
Some good points. I will take down the updating tag, as I don't think there is that much work to be done to justify the banner. And I will also look into those eating establishments you mention. SilkTork ✔Tea time 09:00, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
To add to this, the article has 26 kb of readable prose as of this revision, so there is scope to add material, if we take 50 kb prose as a limit to article size. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:33, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment I think User:SilkTork has this well in hand. I wouldn't worry too much about what Scott thinks, especially as he seems to have walked away. Despite being an admin, he is a combative and prickly editor. When I remonstrated with him once for abusing his admin powers (threatening to block editors who disagreed with him) he simply removed my comment from his talk page. I suppose this is a COI, but I've tried to be objective when reading the article Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:41, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
  • In para 2 of the lead, it opens with Though mainly fields until the 16th century, - which is confusing as it seems to contradict what comes next and is out of chronological order - I'd either remove it or move it along to appropriate time. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:41, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
You know, that has always troubled me slightly, but I've never done anything about it... until now! Thanks for the push. SilkTork ✔Tea time 08:58, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
  • I have addressed concerns raised, and added a restaurant section as suggested. Where do we go from here? SilkTork ✔Tea time 09:40, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
  • I've been walking through the area with a view to making suggestions. There's history around every corner there. Walking down King Street, for example, at one end, by the Apple Store, there's a plaque commemorating the National Sporting Club. Down the other end is the original branch of Moss Bros which closed recently, alas. More anon. Andrew D. (talk) 17:49, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
  • I'm too busy currently to give this much attention. Perhaps it can be postponed a month or two. Andrew D. (talk)
  • Comment The process is that "The featured article removal coordinators—Nikkimaria, Casliber, DrKay, and Maralia—determine either that there is consensus to close during this second stage, or that there is insufficient consensus to do so and so therefore the nomination should be moved to the third stage." We are just waiting for that to happen. There was no first stage, so usually the second stage is rejected. I think there was no rejection of this second stage because the article is scheduled for the main page, and it was felt appropriate to give it a look over. It has been looked over and the article has been cleared of recent errors, and has been updated and expanded along the lines suggested in the FAR. SilkTork ✔Tea time 09:39, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Fighting in ice hockey[edit]

Notified: Mus Musculus, WikiProject Ice Hockey

I am nominating this featured article for review because I don't think this article meet the criteria anymore, like User:DrKiernan point out at the talk page more than 18 months ago, major source problems still not addressed, and there's several paragraphs with no footnotes at all, two [citation needed] didn't get any attention. --Jarodalien (talk) 16:52, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

  • Comment – I'll have a look at the article over the weekend, with the aim of improving it. At a minimum, I'll make sure that the blacklisted sources disappear for good. Although I don't remember doing so, I took the Hockeyfights link out of the References section last year, but I missed the fact that the two tables in the body use it. Replacing them will be my highest priority, along with adding references. It looks like the other two sources mentioned on the talk page have already been removed from the article. Giants2008 (Talk) 15:22, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Harbhajan Singh[edit]

Notified: YellowMonkey, WikiProject Cricket

I am nominating this featured article for review because it now falls some way short of FA standards. It passed FAC (review here in 2007 and came through a FAR in 2008. We are struggling on criteria 1a, 1b, 1c and 1d as this article has not really been kept up to date since around 2008. I think we're also in trouble with 2b and 3c. Here is the summary I gave on the talk page at the beginning of May, but these are samples only.

  • There are numerous unsourced statements. This is a BLP which makes this a major problem.
  • There are prose issues throughout, and I'm not sure this would pass FAC today; lots of run-on sentences and repetitive structures. Someone should look closely at this.
  • The lead basically stops in 2008 and has nothing for the last eight years
  • "Harbhajan Singh married his longtime girlfriend, actress Geeta Basra, on 29 October 2015 in Jalandhar." is listed in "Early Life"
  • There is hardly anything about his career between 2011 and 2015
  • The structure of the article is fairly impenetrable.
  • The later text is basically prose line.
  • Quite a lot of fancruft throughout.

These are the changes since the article was last at FAR in 2008. Unfortunately, I'm not sure this is recoverable as the nominator and lead contributor, YellowMonkey, is long gone and there is a huge amount of work to do. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:55, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

  • Comment: The readable prose size for this article is 74 kB, which is way WP:TOOBIG. The version which passed FA was only 38 kB, which means the current article is double the size of the original one. The article is an absolute disaster, for reasons outlined above, all of which I agree with. It should be cut by at least a third to make it anywhere near acceptable. Recommend delisting. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:16, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

George III of the United Kingdom[edit]

Notified: WikiProject Military history

The overcrowd of images out of context and the unsourced content are the most striking, of the content, there's almost nothing of politics and governments of the Monarch, instead there's a timeline of the UK in the period. Just my 2 cents. Frenditor (talk) 03:00, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

The initial promoter has long since retired - I am not familair with the subject - can you be more specific in political material that might be missing? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:23, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
I don't agree with this characterization of the article. There are three sections without images; most sections have one or two images, with only one section (the longest) with three images and one section (on Arms) containing a gallery of five. The only part of the article where text is between images (on anything other than a massive screen) is the first section "Early life", where the first image is opposite the tail end of the infobox. But because the infobox and the images in the first section are staggered, the 30% of readers that use mobile devices should not see text squeezed between two images facing each other. The images are in context: matched by date or subject matter to the appropriate section.
The "unsourced" material was discussed at the previous review, where I chose not to source it because they are general statements (such as "The Second Coalition, which included Austria, Russia, and the Ottoman Empire, was defeated in 1800") that can be found in any history of the period.
As evidenced by section titles such as "Constitutional struggle" and "William Pitt", as well as the content of those sections and others, George's involvement in politics and government are covered. DrKay (talk) 07:18, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

The editor who started this was blocked as a sock. --Rschen7754 14:52, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. In that case, I think it should either be deleted as WP:CSD#G5 or archived. DrKay (talk) 16:24, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
I'll leave it up to the delegates as to whether they want it archived or deleted. --Rschen7754 18:12, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Look, given that it's here, I can see a few things that need attending. There are some uncited sentences that I will tag, and "kaleidoscope of changing views" in the lead that should be easy to rephrase and dequote. Also the Legacy section has 3 paras that start, "George III..." If these get done I think I am happy to close. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:16, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with the level of images, and I suppose given the number of his children we are stuck with the long infobox and awful template. Close, ideally after fixing Cas' points. Johnbod (talk) 14:10, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Maus[edit]

I am nominating this featured article for review because this article is shit. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 20:43, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi Curly Turkey - usually I would ask you to clarify which of the FA criteria you feel the article doesn't meet, but given the discussion on the talk page I'm guessing you don't actually believe that. We can certainly run an FAR to deal with Poeticbent's concerns one way or the other, but both of you please keep in mind that FAR is not dispute resolution. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:22, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
I don't care what happens to the article. Eveyone who comes across it has some beef with it, and I'm sick of dealing with it. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 01:24, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment - I think Poeticbent has some valid points but if both he and Curly Turkey are too disgusted at this point to engage in this process, I don't see a whole lot of progress being possible on this FAR. --Laser brain (talk) 15:12, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Awww, was just about to read the comic for the first time... If I get it done before this closes, I might have something to say. But I'm not sure what the issues are. FunkMonk (talk) 17:24, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Delist per unsolved problems. At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum in angry exchanges, I find it useful to bring back the Wikipedia:Featured article criteria at this point. The article is not well-researched, not neutral, and not stable. It is a target of ongoing edit wars with enraged participants hiding behind IP addresses in order to stay safe. I do not participate in edit wars by my own volition therefore there's no edit wars from me, which is but an illusion; please read Talk:Maus#FAR for more. The article goes into unnecessary detail where it does not matter, however, it lacks historical context of the Sosnowiec Ghetto in occupied Poland, with the sections on the Maus political impact abroad and surrounding controversy decidedly substandard, as I have already said both at the article talk page and on my own talk page as well. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 17:46, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
Neither you or anyone else has to my knowledge pointed out any actual, actionable problems with the article. That would require some more substance than the subjetive critique you have advanced at the talkpage.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 00:21, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
  • @Poeticbent: We actually don't declare "delist" or "keep" at this stage. This is for delineating and attempting to fix problems. I've semi-protected the article for three months and will consider indefinite semi, because I don't see any useful contributions at all coming from drive-by anonymous editors. As for your other concerns, there is a question of whether we have any hope of addressing them without the involvement of the primary editors. If not, might as well fast track to FARC. --Laser brain (talk) 20:52, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
The article obviously should be delisted (and shame on the reviewers for letting this garbage out of the bin), but not for Poeticbent's rationale. Reviewers should be very careful not to take Poeticbent's comments at face value:
There's been a lot of ciriticism of the article, so let's ping a whack of these people: @Cordless Larry, Bus stop, Softlavender, Sıgehelmus, NebY, Only in death does duty end, Volunteer Marek, and Lost in space:. I'm sure I missed someone. Feel free to ping them—we can't let this pile of shit continue to fester with that gold star at the top of it.
Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:34, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
Last time I looked at it was like four years ago when it was up for GA and I don't recall having any major issues with it. In fact I vaguely remember thinking it was pretty good.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:09, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
As I explained on the article's talk page, I stopped watching it because of the tone of responses I got when I tried, on request, to provide some outside input into a debate. I don't get the feeling that that tone has changed, so I won't be contributing here. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:03, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
  • I think the drama police ought to close this RFAR, and that noone should reopen it untill some specific actionable complaints preferably supported by reliable references showing how the article misrepresents the literature about the graphic novel.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 00:20, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Threatening to use the FAR process to push an edit is disruptive. maclean (talk) 03:52, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
  • My final comment. I would like to take User:Laser brain up on his suggestion (from above) and fast track this entry to FARC, because there's no hope for addressing my concerns here. I do not understand why there's so much aggression in some of the responses from above. – Reverting my single edit with citation from reliable third-party book of Holocaust history (with one-click) was, and still is, the canary in the coal mine for me. The whole affair makes me remember what happened when we suddenly realized that the article about the SS was controlled and heavily edited by a genuine i.e. self-identified fascist. (It has been fixed though.)
Our article about Maus is not balanced, and lack the encyclopaedic tone. It is written in a childlike manner (hallmark of all fan-pages), thus ignoring the criticism by published authors who point out that the representation of human beings through anthropomorphic animals: Jews as mice, German gentiles as blockhead cats, Polish gentiles as pigs ("unclean" by virtue, the only ones straight from Goebbels), Gypsies as Gypsy moths, Swedish people as reindeer and the British as fish; makes a connection between cultural identities of these nations and the metaphoric non-human animals in the minds of those who don't like them. It is a gimmick – as the critics point out – making fun of biological determinism by turning racial conflicts into natural predator/prey relationships (none of it is stressed in this article enough). Our Maus article denies the stereotypic connotations of Spiegelman's technique, but also turns that technique upside down. It fails to explain that the author is playing directly into the racist visions of Adolf Hitler. (Robert Harvey presses this point in Art of the Comic Book) The story's moral underpinnings are troubling. In fact, this is why I did not participate in the (quote-unquote) quality drive of this entry before now, even though I was aware of it much earlier. I stopped watching it similar to Cordless Larry, but for my own reasons. Things changed when I realized that Maus is being promoted in the factual Holocaust history articles from occupied Poland. I attempted to help bring some sense to it, and was reverted by "the owner" at an instance. That is why I'm here. For the record, I am not threatening anyone by informing them about my intentions in the follow up to their actions.
Some comic book critics question the use of the animal metaphor in relation to Holocaust history (Der Stürmer comes to mind immediately). Indeed, some have roundly criticized Spiegelman's use of the device as 'glib and irresponsible', although none of it is in our article. Hillel Halkin, reviewing Maus for Commentary in 1992 wrote: 'The Holocaust was a crime committed by humans against human, not – as Nazi theory held – by one biological species against another. To draw people as animals ... is doubtly dehumanizing, once by virtue of the symbolism and once by virtue of graphic limitations.' Other commentators insisted that fidelity to truth is essential to writing about the Holocaust. – The Sosnowiec Ghetto was destroyed during the courageous uprising in which all fighters perished. Stories of attempted rescue abound. And yet, there were also people like Moshe Merin in there, who aided the Nazis in the hunt for the leaders of the aforementioned groups. We know little to nothing from reliable third-party sources about people in this book. The lack of true historical background to Sosnowiec/Będzin Ghettos trivializes the matter. The Holocaust narrators are bound by an ethical imperative to represent details as accurately as possible according Sara Horowitz (Voicing the Void) and Wikipedia is no different I believe. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 11:55, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
  1. Charles Hatfield, Alternative Comics: An Emerging Literature ISBN 1604735872
  2. Judith B. Kerman, The Fantastic in Holocaust Literature and Film: Critical Perspectives ISBN 0786458747
  • I do not understand why there's so much aggression—you can only be so dense. The aggression comes entirely in response to the bizarre, unprovoked threats and aggreession you've displayed ever since I offered to help you un-botch your ridiculous edit. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:24, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
  • none of it is in our article—holy shit! so you just up and admit you haven't read the article then? One of these critics even gets his photo in the article, and the Hillel Halkin and R. C. Harvey quotes you quote are in the fucking article! Just how blind are your to your own bias? Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:30, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment – I can't say that I'm an expert on graphic novels or the horrors of the Holocaust, but I decided to check the source behind the disputed "little stereotyping" vs. "much stereotyping" sentence. Fortunately, the relevant page was available to me on Google Books. After reading it, I must admit to some confusion. It may be that the content is completely beyond my pay grade as an editor (it probably is in fairness), but I don't see where proof behind the "much" change is. Perhaps it's at the top of the page, where "one-dimensional animal caricatures and 'bestial' stereotypes" are mentioned, but the context is on the prior page, which I don't have access to. Therefore, I can't be sure one way or the other. Later on the page, I see discussion of how stereotypes are being "mitigage(d)", and how "Spiegelman may do much to reverse a negative stereotype" in one instance. That doesn't match up well with the edit; was there another source that was used for this information? If so, the source should have been swapped when the edit was made. While I have no wish to trivialize Nazi horrors, we do need sources that verify content changes. Then again, I might be missing it because I'm not as familiar with interpreting academic literature as some; maybe it's right under my nose, so to speak. I don't have any further opinion on the article, as I just don't know enough about the subject matter. I do hope, though, that we can get on without calling people's work "childlike" and basically calling people fanboys; that won't lead to the kind of collaboration this site thrives on. Giants2008 (Talk) 17:42, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
You don't have to have a PhD to read exactly what is being said and than substitute words which are synonymous to get to the bottom of things. The "owner" of this article admitted on my talk page to have written that sentence himself by saying (quote): "I may have misinterpreted the source..." Here is what he wrote: "The Germans are depicted with little difference between them, but there is great variety and little stereotyping among the Poles and Jews who dominate the story." Little stereotyping implies almost no stereotyping. Alas, depicting Poles as pigs and Jews as mice isn't stereotyping, because Poles are like pigs, and Jews are like mice. Look at the faces of those "pigs". There's "great variety" between them (sure), each one looks like a different filthy monster from Der Stürmer, with a brand new evil expression on his face. The "owner" of Wikipedia article chose to delegate this sort of racist talk to a dark little corner, and (when confronted) follow it with dismissive personal attacks full of hysterical filibustering and exaggerations. You don't have to buy it though. Poeticbent talk 05:35, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
Good God, but aren't you fantastically dishonest?—
  • It's telling how you've edited my comment down from "I may have misinterpreted the source or gotten the wrong page", where I alsgo gave the likely pages (and removed the text until I could be sure). Where I may have made a mistake (but probably didn't), you introduced a clear, deliberate, and disgustingly sneaky distortion of the text to push your POV with the change from "little stereotyping" to "much stereotyping".
  • The "owner" of Wikipedia article chose to delegate this sort of racist talk to a dark little corner, and (when confronted) follow it with dismissive personal attacks full of hysterical filibustering and exaggerations—interesting (and totally dishonest) interpretation of my comment on your talk page, which really couldn't have been more congenial. I offered to find a way to work these matters into the text, and you responded by threatening to sic the admins on me. Supposedly I'm "aggressive", while Poeticbent has accused me of racism and OWNership and threatened me repeatedly.
  • Poeticbent still hasn't bothered to address his bizarre accusations that there is nothing in the article critical about Spiegelman's use of pigs, when there are in fact several such critical voices, include two exact quotes that he accuses the article of lacking. Why do you refuse to address this, Poeticbent? Is it because you haven't actually read the article?
  • I see some bizarre behaviour from Poeticbent elsewhere. He had the Treblinka extermination camp article promoted to GA, then after failing to have it promted to FA, had it brought back to FA by one of the supporters of the FA1, and then himself supported the FA2.
  • Once again, I urge anyone who feels like tackling this mess to first ttake a peek at "Contemporary Debates on the Holocaust in Poland The Reception of Art Spiegelman’s ‘Graphic Novel’ Maus" by Tomasz Łysak, an essay in a RS about Polish reaction to Maus that appears to have been written specifically about Poeticbent. And be sure not to ignore Poeticbent's "each one looks like a different filthy monster from Der Stürmer, with a brand new evil expression on his face", which says reams and reams about this editor's psychology.
Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:35, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
  • A week has gone by without a single comment from the broader community. What's happening, dear colleagues worldwide? Are you too afraid to dip your finger in this steaming pile of propaganda? Timothy Snyder, Housum professor of history at Yale University and author of seminal Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin wrote in the New York Times Sunday Book Review on June 22, 2012. – And ... no, you will not find his name in the reference section of this star decorated hate speech. But you can read his review online. I'm posting here a few selected samples from a very long essay, but with a sense of satisfaction, because the likelihood of "the article owner" deleting it from here is much smaller, when compared to the complete denial of my right to contribute to "his own article" in mainspace.

In a nutshell, the case against MAUS is that, despite its veneer of sophistication, the book is a rather primitive expression of the author’s prejudices in choosing to portray the Poles as a nation of swine. Furthermore, its portrayal of Poles contains serious misrepresentations regarding their alleged role in the Holocaust. This is contemptible, and unacceptable by Canadian standards.

Depicting Poles as disgusting and brutal animals is eerily reminiscent of the Nazi propaganda newspaper, Der Stürmer. Significantly, this point is usually omitted by reviewers of MAUS, even though the image of fat, fascist pigs permeates MAUS and is all too glaring to overlook. The fact that MAUS employs the same imagery of the Poles as found in Nazi propaganda, where Poles were often referred to as “pigs,” could perhaps be explained, provided teachers and teaching materials addressed this matter squarely. The fact is they almost never do.

Spiegelman does not humanize the Polish “pigs.” He humanizes only his Jewish mice characters, while depicting his Polish pigs essentially as racist stereotypes. By focusing on negative characters like the camp kapos, Spiegelman implies that the Poles, who were also victims of the Nazi regime, collaborated with their fascist enemies. Unfortunately, these crude stereotypes are, for the most part, simply perverse history and would be unacceptable in any other context. — Timothy Snyder, 3. Why is the depiction of Poles in MAUS objectionable from a historical perspective?

(Google cache) Poeticbent talk 14:07, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
The viewpoint of Snyder can be added to the article. The fact that it is not currently included is not a major problem, and certainly not a cause for delisting. You need to start taking a positive and collaborative attitude here, for example by suggesting actual changes using the normal editing mechanisms when one wants to include content and perspectives to the article. Your belligerent postures here do not help you in the least. Especially not when several of your claims about the article turns out to be untrue. This is simply a case where you want to fit the article closer to your personal point of view. The correct way to argue that is to use arguments to convince others that it is necessary, not to abuse editorial processes and make enemies out of the people who have worked in good faith to create a featured article. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 14:29, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
@Poeticbent: While I do take you seriously, I have little desire to engage with agenda-driven editors such as yourself because you are incapable of editing from a neutral and dispassionate stance. I doubt you can claim with a straight face that you don't have an agenda and POV here. This is at odds with Wikipedia's mission. I agree with Maunus that Snyder can be added in an appropriate fashion. This FAR should be closed. --Laser brain (talk) 14:35, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
For the record. The article was promoted to a featured article status at 16:59, 17 January 2013 based on support votes from both, User:Maunus and User:Laser brain, neither of whom edited the article in the process. And please, spare me the personal attacks. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 15:09, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
I did not support promotion. I can see others' points above when they grow frustrated with your inaccurate or dishonest representations of facts. If you see my calling out your agenda as a personal attack, so be it. But I'm still calling it out. I don't blame Curly Turkey for getting exasperated with you, because I'm already almost there just from these minimal dealings. --Laser brain (talk) 15:31, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment - as a completely uninvolved editor, who hasn't even read the article, the amount of snark in this conversation is baffling. It all seems to boil down to: one editor wants some more critical views added to the text that deals with animal analogues. This editor needs to propose some fitting text that can be added (in line with WP:due weight) and be much more specific. It will take much less time than writing long tirades and endless discussion. FunkMonk (talk) 16:01, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
What would you like me to do, User:FunkMonk, "propose some fitting text" to whom?! – The people who refuse to edit on my behalf (like User:Curly Turkey), or those who abuse me verbally on a par, but without ever editing the article? You say, "the amount of snark in this conversation is baffling", but is there an affable and cordial way of talking about racism? MAUS is a Holocaust industry enterprise with a lot of money at stake. Please read Snyder comments on U.S. distribution practices (quote): "MAUS has been taught widely in U.S. high schools, and even elementary schools, as part of the literature curriculum for many years." This sort of thing usually translates into landslide resource revenues. The book is being promoted as non-fiction. Snyder writes: "MAUS clearly cannot be treated as an accurate historical record, although it is passed off as such. The perspective of the protagonist is too narrow and flawed. The voice of the author and narrator, rather than exposing the protagonist’s biases and misrepresentations of the historical record, reinforces them" (end of quote). Look what happened to Norman Finkelstein as soon as he began to expose the workings of similar phenomenons. His tenure at DePaul was denied. – However, I would love to see MAUS article developed like all other Wikipedia articles about highly controversial subjects (including Finkelstein article itself), but it will never happen for as long as this one entry is being walled off from joint editing through a preposterous Feature Article sticker awarded by a good faith mistake. That's why I'm here. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 19:20, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
And the obvious way to propose changes would be to make a very precise, point by point list of suggested changes on the talk page or here, so uninvolved editors can get an overview and judge for themselves. What you've done now is very counter-productive to your own cause, huge walls of rambling text (referring to older talk-page discussions, therefore hard to follow) with little specific suggestions on how to improve the article. It makes it extremely hard to follow what it is you actually want to achieve. FunkMonk (talk) 19:29, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
You're correct, of course, FunkMonk. I shouldn't let my irritation show, and I should stick to the content. What you point out is exactly why we're spinning our wheels here. We all presumably want to see the article improved if it's deficient, but we've now veered completely off-topic and have had a large paragraph about how Maus is making money by being taught in schools. It's thus far been impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to Poeticbent's commentary. --Laser brain (talk) 21:17, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Bureaucratic creep. Another two weeks have gone by. Everybody talk but nobody listen. I have explained in great detail what is wrong with this article using comprehensive prose. My comprehensive prose is straightforward and clear. It is not a tirade. Suggested WP:BULLETS are not workable, because the coverage of MAUS is flawed to its core and, for as long as Curly Turkey's 'ownership' of this entry is protected by the FA sticker, all WP:RS voices of reason (which I quote, including comments by professional historians such as Snyder, Grobman, and McDonough) will be reverted, and nothing will be improved. I would like to have this article returned to standard editing (so it can be improved) and therefore ask the coordinators at FAR, User:Nikkimaria and User:Casliber, to please place my review at featured article removal candidates. In my substantive comments (from above) and at the article talk page I have raised complex issues about factual accuracy and neutrality. This I have done to the best of my abilities, and critics may say what they like. Thanks in advance, Poeticbent talk 16:24, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
FAs are subject to standard editing just as all other articles. You just need to get consensus for your suggested changes, which you have failed to do (partly because you havent proposed any concrete changes).·maunus · snunɐɯ· 16:38, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
"I don't like it", is not an argument. The reason you have received no comments is because you refuse the make a concise list of suggestions (which is what we have all been waiting for during these two weeks). It is very simple. "Flawed to its core", allegations of "bureaucratic creep", and other over-dramatic BS means little to nothing without readable suggestions for how to improve the article. FunkMonk (talk) 16:39, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
I appreciate you think the article has flaws, Poeticbent, but this is a forum for article improvement, not for dispute resolution, and we're not here simply to remove the "FA sticker". As such, specific and actionable comments with reference to the FA criteria would be far more helpful in gauging next steps. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:02, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Featured article removal candidates[edit]

Place the most recent review at the top. If the nomination is just beginning, place under Featured Article Review, not here.

OpenBSD[edit]

Notified: Tony Sidaway, Risc64, Mindmatrix, Guy Harris, Czar, WikiProject Cryptography, WikiProject Computer science, WikiProject Free software, WikiProject Software, WikiProject Computing, WikiProject Open

Review comments[edit]

I am nominating this featured article for review because in the ten years since the FAC and six years since the previous FA review, the article has undergone significant changes (see the article from 2006) and has fallen short of FA criteria in several areas:

1(a): Not particularly well-written, mostly bland technical writing.
1(b): Not comprehensive, very brief in several sections.
1(c): Citations are lacking in several areas, particularly sections 2-4.
2(a): Five paragraphs in lead; much of this content probably belongs in the main article but not the lead.

I have notified several users above who have contributed a fair amount to the article, as well as one user who also thought this should be brought to FAR. I also notified the projects that have this article listed as Top or High priority. The user who initially brought it to FA, as well as the user who initiated the previous FAR, are both inactive, and the article only averages one edit every 2.1 days as it was only heavily edited during the initial FAC around 2005-06. However, there should be a few users that I notified above and others in the WikiProjects who would be willing to help improve the article and possibly work to keep it as FA (although it does need a considerable amount of work).

I also have a basic peer review of the article that could improve it somewhat to start:

  • American vs. British spellings: License and licence both used in lead
  • OpenBSD Project: P should be lowercase
  • “M:tier” in quotes: not sure if this is proper
  • Component and third party sections: Too listy
  • Development, 3rd PP: Inverted quotes (double within single)

Tonystewart14 (talk) 14:46, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Comment - Gosh, this really has been battered to death since the last FAR. It's practically unrecognizable and nowhere near even GA status. Lots of unsourced text, lots of choppy sections, probably requires a complete rewrite. --Laser brain (talk) 15:16, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

  • My comments are on the article's talk page but in short, the unsourced sections are alone enough work to warrant the delisting. The prose also is a long way from brilliant. I'd be curious what it would be like to rebuild from its 2006 state as opposed to blowing it up and starting over. Good luck to anyone who takes it on I am no longer watching this page—ping if you'd like a response czar 15:33, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Sometimes I advocate a blanket revert to the last known good state, but that obviously wouldn't be appropriate here because of everything that's probably occurred with an active OS. It looks like Tony Sidaway updated the article quite a bit in June 2012. I'd love to hear their opinion, but it looks like they have not edited actively in recent times. --Laser brain (talk) 15:41, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
  • As noted above, I did notify Tony Sidaway and a few others who had made some recent edits. Tony's last edit to this article was in July 2015, so he might still be around and provide some good comments. I think the 2006 version, and to some extent even the current one, could be used as templates for sources and content and build from there. It'll be a lot of work, but doesn't need to be from scratch. Tonystewart14 (talk) 16:37, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment: Reading through this article, it's B-class content at best, and probably closer to C-class. There exist gaps in the history section, no section or significant discussion on the features of OpenBSD, the majority of the article discusses more minor aspects (funding, security, etc.). The present content is fine although needing of a copyedit; however substantial expansion is needed to bring this article to even a GA. Esquivalience t 23:43, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
  • I also noticed that there are mostly named references, with a few exceptions which were likely added more recently. There were some references added to the lead since the start of this FAR, so if there's a consensus to continue having all sources be named refs at the end of the article, we could standardize this throughout. Tonystewart14 (talk) 18:25, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
  • I'm still around. It looks as if this nomination has brought renewed attention to the article, resulting in attempts to improve it. That's good news. On the use of the spellings licence and license in the lede, note that these are the normal British spellings of the noun and the verb respectively according to the OED, which also lists licence as an accepted variant spelling for the verb. I no longer remember whether the article is supposed to be in any particular dialect and I have no strong opinions on which dialect the article should be written in. --TS 01:49, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Nice to see you Tony. I agree that User:Michael Reed has done a great job so far and the article is improving rapidly. For the license spelling, I went ahead and changed it to the American version since that was the spelling used in 35 out of 37 instances in the article. Tonystewart14 (talk) 03:52, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

FARC comments[edit]

Concerns raised in the review section included prose, coverage, and sourcing. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:21, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Michael Reed has done a great job of cleaning up the article. I have also made some changes, and several others have contributed occasionally. I would have to agree with another comment above, however, that the article will probably need a rewrite to be FA-quality. We can use the improved existing version and compare it with older versions to develop a structure for the article that will ensure complete coverage while also being up-to-date. Tonystewart14 (talk) 02:40, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Also, I noticed the article has had 175 edits in the past three weeks, whereas the article only had one edit every two weeks or so before. It may be well short of FA criteria, but that's a wonderful statistic! Tonystewart14 (talk) 07:29, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Enceladus[edit]

Notified: Drbogdan, WolfmanSF, JorisvS, Volcanopele, BatteryIncluded, WikiProject Volcanoes, WikiProject Solar System, WikiProject Astronomical objects, WikiProject Astronomy
WP:URFA nom

I am nominating this featured article for review because it's been tagged for update in the atmosphere section, which is very short. Readers are directed to a sub-article Atmosphere of Enceladus, but it seems to contain all the same information as the main article, and so appears somewhat pointless. In my opinion, the gallery section does not add much to the article, and a link to the commons category should be sufficient. DrKay (talk) 16:25, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Review section[edit]

comments from Graeme Bartlett
  • I am looking into this. There do not seem to be many more writings on the "atmosphere", and most do not distinguish it from the plumes. I found one thesis modelling the atmosphere, but does a thesis count as a reliable source?
  • One topic missing that I see quite a few papers about is the effect of Endeladus on the magnetosphere, but its own and that of Saturn.
  • Another is related, the auroral hiss[2].
  • referencing improvements required:
    • The Blondel, Philippe reference needs expanding with links.
    • Satellites of the Outer Planets: Worlds in their own right needs an ISBN.
    • "Cracks on Enceladus Open and Close under Saturn's Pull" has author Bill Steigerwald
    • 56 and 67 have a bibcode but no doi (needs a check)
    • Taubner R.S.; Leitner J. J.; et al needs some kind of link and et al should be expanded a bit.
    • "Ocean Within Enceladus May Harbor Hydrothermal Activity" should have publisher which is astrobiology, but this is a NASA press release, so there is probably a better source.
    • "Our Solar System and Beyond is Awash in Water" is also a NASA press release
    • "'Jets' on Saturn Moon Enceladus May Actually Be Giant Walls of Vapor and Ice" needs author= Charles Q. Choi date=6 May 2015 publisher=Space.com
    • "A Hot Start on Enceladus" needs date March 14, 2007
    • "Atmosphere on Enceladus" needs standard format on date.
    • "Enceladus Life Finder" needs fixing, internal title is "ENCELADUS LIFE FINDER: THE SEARCH FOR LIFE IN A HABITABLE MOON" authors are J.I. Lunine, J.H. Waite, F. Postberg L. Spilker, and K. Clark, this is part of 46th Lunar and Planetary Science Conference (2015)

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:03, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

  • I'll see if I can do something about the references tomorrow. As for theses, I'd say they need some external support (in the vein of other sources citing them) to work in and of itself.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 23:09, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
    Update, done with a few notes:
    • 56 and 67 does not seem to have a doi that I can find.
    • The NASA press releases are the sources of the images in question; I've found an article on Nature here about the hydrothermal activity in the ocean.
    I'll see about the auroral hiss and the magnetospheric effects later.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 10:17, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
    Replaced the press releases with that Nature citation too. The atmosphere will have to wait a bit, unfortunately.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 12:58, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Most images are missing alt= text. Please read WP:ALT before adding text though. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:47, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
  • More checking word by word: (using tr "][()\t,.:;\"" " "| tr " " "\n" | sort -u )
    • There is inconsistent date format. Sometimes we have yyyy-mm-dd form, but it is mostly month dd, yyyy. This applies to access dates and publication dates. eg: 2007-04-15 2008-11-27 2011-12-17 2014-04-03 2014-04-04 2014-04-27 2014-12-17 2015-04-09 2015-04-15 2015-05-08 2015-09-17
    • There are a couple of nonprinting characters in the dimensions in the infobox "513.2 × 502.8 × 496.6" (surrounding the first and second ×) (these are halfwidth spaces, not a serious issue)
    • Inconsistent ISBN13, we have 978-1-4020-9216-9 978-1-4244-7350-2 and 9783540376835 (the last form is best)
    • Cassini‍‍ '​‍s has a non printing character before apostrophe (due to use of {{'s}})
    • Caption at internal structure " mantle/yellow and core/red" style should be " mantle (yellow) and core (red)"
    • infobox mean radius uses Earths and Moons - probably should be Earth's and Moon's
    • E-ring should be E-Ring
    • We have "g/cm³" (2 uses) as well as using superscript 3 g/cm3 (1 use, but I thought MOS said this one).
    • Two uses of wrong spelling: kilometres (It was convert template doing it, spelling mistake avoided by using |sp=us
    • Using m/s² in info box instead of superfixed 2
    • Abbreviated journal titles like "Orig Life Evol Biosph" should be expanded fully.
    • "Saturn׳s" has non-standard apostrophe
    • " —called libration— " uses spaces as well as m-dash (should be no space?)
    • I suspect " UV–green–near IR images" uses the wrong kind of dash. It is an adjectival form. (actually it appears to use –) (others use / or ,)
  • Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:13, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
    I think I got the issues except the inconsistent the dates (MOSUNITS does indicate the superscript standard; probably because it's easier to create that code than to create the superscripted number itself); will need a check on non-printing characters.
    • Striking corrected (notice I added more issues after you started work) Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:54, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Did some more edits to resolve these issues, except for the dash and nonprinting character edits. I didn't find any "kilometres" in the source; I guess a template is causing these issues. Now, for the atmosphere I've to confess that other than using Calabozos and Cerro Azul (Chilean volcano) as templates I've never worked with FAs; is the atmosphere section of Pluto plus the magnetosphere and auroral hiss a good template to follow?Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:50, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
  • I think so, yes. Thanks. DrKay (talk) 18:33, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Another inconsistency is the possessive form: Enceladus' versus Enceladus's. I prefer the second, but is that right? Many of the sources use Enceladus' Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:56, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
It can be either, but I too prefer the second, because I think it's clearer in written prose. DrKay (talk) 09:37, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
I personally prefer the first; at least to me it was indicated to be proper grammar. I'll do some other work here in about a week, though.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 18:41, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
You might like to read MOS:POSS and Apostrophe, especially the section Apostrophe#Possessive apostrophe, particularly sub-section "Basic rule (singular nouns)". It seems that a lot depends upon how the possessive form is pronounced. Corinne (talk) 03:31, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
Comments from Corinne

1) In this sentence in the lead:

  • Enceladus has a wide range of surface features, ranging from old, heavily cratered regions to young, tectonically deformed terrains that formed as recently as 100 million years ago, despite its small size.

the phrase "despite its small size", because it comes at the end, sounds like it might apply only to the last clause, so is a little puzzling (if it does apply only to the last clause, I don't understand the connection between small size and relatively recent deformation of terrain). I believe you mean it to apply to the first clause, "Enceladus has a wide range of surface features". If so, I recommend putting the phrase at the beginning of the sentence:

  • Despite it small size, Enceladus has a wide range of surface features, ranging...

2) The first sentence of the second paragraph of the lead is:

  • Enceladus was discovered in 1789 by William Herschel, but little was known about it until the two Voyager spacecraft passed nearby in the early 1980s.

You haven't mentioned Voyager spacecraft before this, so saying "the two Voyager spacecraft" assumes that your readers know what they are. I recommend removing "the". You can, and I guess you do, go into more detail about the two spacecraft later, and who's to say there won't be more in the future?

  • Enceladus was discovered in 1789 by William Herschel, but little was known about it until two Voyager spacecraft passed nearby in the early 1980s.

3) The last sentence in the lead is:

  • Its resonance with Dione excites its orbital eccentricity, which tidal forces damp, resulting in tidal heating of its interior, and offering a possible explanation for the geological activity.

(a) I was confused by the clause, "which tidal forces damp". It is true that "tidal" is an adjective, so "forces" ought to be a noun; however, "damp" is more often an adjective or noun than a verb, so "forces" jumped in as a verb. It took a re-reading to realize that "damp" was the verb to the phrase "tidal forces". To a non-scientist, even one who knows what the verb "to damp" means, the combination of "tidal forces" and "damp" is so unusual that it is hard to comprehend. I'm wondering if another verb could be found other than "damp" to make this more comprehensible for the average reader. Perhaps "suppress", or "counteract"?

(b) Also, for the average reader, the word "tidal" suggests, of course, "tides", which in turn suggests the presence of a large body of water (or other liquid). The previous paragraph mentioned "a subsurface ocean of liquid water", but no connection between the tides and that body of water was made. If the "tidal forces" are related in some way to the subsurface body of water, that connection should be made clear. Since no surface body of water (or liquid) is mentioned here, the reader will look for it later on. In the section "Orbit and rotation", "tidal deformation" is mentioned in the second paragraph, but no body of liquid is mentioned. If these "tidal forces" and "tidal deformation" have nothing to do with a body of liquid, that ought to be made clear, also.


4) The first two sentences in Enceladus#Orbit and rotation are:

  • Enceladus is one of the major inner satellites of Saturn. It is the fourteenth satellite when ordered by distance from Saturn, and orbits within the densest part of the E Ring, the outermost of Saturn's rings.

I think the wording of the clause "when ordered by distance from Saturn" could be made a little clearer for the average WP reader. "When ordered" sounds like "ordered from a catalog", "ordered in a restaurant". I think it would be clearer if it were worded something like this:

  • It is the fourteenth satellite in order of distance from Saturn, and it orbits..."

5) In the second paragraph in "Orbit and rotation", can you put the conversion so that distances in miles are given?

– Corinne (talk) 04:17, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

2) Without "the", it suggests that there have been more than two Voyager spacecraft, which is untrue. Any possible futute Voyager 3 would be crystal ball.
I don't agree. Saying just "until two Voyager spacecraft passed nearby" is just introducing the spacecraft since you haven't mentioned them before this. It does not suggest that there were, or will be, more. It is really not good to use the definite article until you have first introduced or mentioned them. Corinne (talk) 18:09, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
3) a) I think saying it in the passive does the trick. b) Tidal forces also act on a solid body. The effect is only much stronger if they act on a liquid. For example, solid Mimas has been tidally locked to Saturn; in fact, none of the small regular moons of Saturn are known not to be tidally locked.
I have copy-edited the article based on several other points. --JorisvS (talk) 12:31, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
Atmosphere section

DrKay's original concern was with the Atmosphere section, which I just removed. I'm not totally sure about it, so see my rationale on the talk page and let me know if you agree. A2soup (talk) 12:31, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

As we've established, it was not possible to expand the section and I think short sections should be merged into others, which is essentially what has been done here with the material positioned in the Cryovolcanism section. DrKay (talk) 11:33, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Move to FARC. The prose is poor, using an unnecessarily repetitive and unidiomatic style that is also indicative of structural problems in the article. Because relevant material is deliberately excluded, the subject is not placed in its context rendering the topic non-comprehensive and difficult to follow without following links to other articles. Attempts to address these problems are reverted. DrKay (talk) 17:27, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
If by "relevant material is deliberately excluded", you mean the atmosphere apart from the plumes, I have to disagree. That's more a case of "relevant material is not yet known". No argument on the other points, though. A2soup (talk) 17:55, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
No, I mean for example that the article says Enceladus is "sixth-largest", "one of the major inner" and "fourteenth" moon of Saturn, but we are not told how many moons there are or how many of those are "major inner" ones. DrKay (talk) 18:27, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
The problem there is that Saturn has a difficult-to-define number of moons. There are spherical moons, but Moons of Saturn gives 62 moons with confirmed orbits, of which 53 are named. Of course, what's a moon or not is ultimately subjective - the rings are made of zillions of "moons", and how can we define when a chunk is big enough to be a moon? Saying Enceladus is "sixth-largest" with no absolute number specified is actually an elegant solution to this problem. I have addressed the other two concerns you raised by given content for "one of the major inner" and removing "fourteenth". Do you have any other prose concerns? A2soup (talk) 16:39, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
Comments by Dunkleosteus77
  • Change all ISBN-10 to ISBN-13 (I only see one) using this site as per WP:ISBN
    Done. There were four (I have a little script). --Mirokado (talk) 00:33, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

FARC section[edit]

The instability leads me to move here. Concerns about prose, which can be difficult to balance between exactness and accessibility in these articles. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:41, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

What "instability" do you mean? There was one recent not-quite-edit-war (both editors made varied changes that ultimately led to improvement, rather than flat reverts). Also, can you point out specifically what prose concerns you? A2soup (talk) 16:42, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
The fact that they are not edit-warring does not mean there is consensus. Prose is a pretty major issue to try and get right and moving it here means we're not closing this as a "keep", that is all. Further work and continue before editors comment on whether the article should retain or lose FA status. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:58, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
Lack of consensus is not a stability issue if the article text is stable. But I'm more interested in what specifically the prose issues you see are - I would love to try to address them. A2soup (talk) 03:16, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
@A2soup: Calling DrKay about these prose issues.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 11:32, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
@DrKay, Graeme Bartlett, and Corinne: Where do things stand here? Nikkimaria (talk) 21:58, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
All the minor issues are fixed, but my major issue still remains, which is incomplete coverage on the topic of its effect on Saturn including auroral hiss and its magnetosphere. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:20, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
Could we perhaps have declarations from A2soup, BatteryIncluded, Jo-Jo Eumerus, and JorisvS? Thanks. I have no comments on the prose but am not competent to comment on the comprehensiveness, which is the remaining concern. DrKay (talk) 14:48, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
  • The issues mentioned by Graeme can probably be easily fixed with some sources and text from them. No opinion on prose, my English skills are not sufficient to comment on them.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 18:45, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
  • The science aspect seems to be updated. I have no opinion on the prose. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 21:04, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Default keep. FARC section open for 4 months with no explicit delist declarations. DrKay (talk) 20:13, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

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