Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)

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The miscellaneous section of the village pump is used to post messages that do not fit into any other category. Please post on the policy, technical, or proposals sections when appropriate, or at the help desk for assistance. For general knowledge questions, please use the reference desk.

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Wow, mobile browser editing really is bad

My usual device is not working, so I tried editing off of Safari (I did sign up for the NPP backlog drive, after all). Genuinely unusable. Probably going to take a break until it's fixed. DrowssapSMM 22:41, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Calling @Folly Mox, who knows about editing on the mobile site. Unfortunately, there's no central noticeboard or other page where mobile-based editors congregate. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:00, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

If Talk:List of stores that sell laptops wasn't a redlink that would be the obvious choice. jp×g🗯️ 10:42, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps there could be - is this suitable for a project, or do they have to be about articles? Newystats (talk) 22:04, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

My experience (as a frequent iPhone user) is that m.wiki is very good for reading pages (better than Vector is on desktop, actually), serviceable for copyediting and projectspace discussions, and very bad for expanding articles (no tools like ProveIt for citations, and switching between the article and the sources is harder with mobile browser tabs). Vector 2010 holds up surprisingly well for editing, seeing as it wasn't mobile-optimized at all, but is a much worse reading experience. Mach61 (talk) 03:06, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

(responding to ping) I do like the mobile web experience for the most part, and don't really find any part of it particularly burdensome or uncomfortable. I've been a fully mobile editor since the death of my last computer in summer 2022, but I must confess almost complete unfamiliarity with most advanced editing tools. I've never applied for the NPP perm, but having a look at Special:NewPagesFeed just now, it seems essentially identical between Minerva and Vector 2022.

There are, of course, some tasks that are more difficult: I can't run two browser windows sidey-side with a source in one and an open editing interface in another, but it is a bit more convenient that I can hold my phone flat against the opposing page of a physical book if I'm using one of those. Most scripts don't support Minerva, so I'll have to hop into desktop view if I want to use Rater or Prosesize or many functions of Twinkle, and the limited RAM of a mobile device has led me to uninstall scripts that have some utility because the additional javascript load times weren't worth it. And of course the input is typically a bit slower on a cell phone keyboard than the usual kind, but the predictive text helps to an extent (I never have managed to figure out swipe typing).

Essentially though, genuinely unusable is so nonspecific and unactionable that I don't know what to say or how I could help. This reminds me of another recent complaint at VPI, which suggested the mobile frontend was "uncomfortable" without specifics or further elaboration. That's not a way to get functional help or to suggest software improvements. User:DrowssapSMM, I hope your computer gets fixed soon, but do you have any examples of specific tasks you were unable to complete using your mobile device, and what it was in particular that made them impossible for you? Folly Mox (talk) 12:33, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

@Folly Mox I edit a lot on an Android phone and find that I keep changing between different interfaces, voluntarily or involuntarily, to get different functionality: If I want to look at an editor's contributions I have to get their user page, opt for "Desktop view" and then look at the contributions list. If they haven't created a user page ... I have to find something they've edited, find a version which gives a "contribs" link alongside their username as part of the diff, etc. There is one ghastly state I sometimes fall into where the font size increases with every keystroke so it's very soon impossible to do anything at all and I have to abandon the edit.

It seems impossible to contribute to some talk page discussions, I think Wikipedia Project talk pages mostly, though I can contribute to article and user talk pages. If I want to add to the end of the automatic edit summary after doing an "undo", I often struggle to scroll along to its end, if it's longer than the input box: sometimes it will move, sometimes not, possibly dependent on what scale Ive zoomed it to.

It's altogether a somewhat unpredictable and stressful experience, but I keep on doing it because I can use the phone in places where I don't have my computer, such as sitting on the sofa, semi-sociably half-watching something on the television. PamD 17:08, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

PamD huh, I have encountered zero of those problems using Firefox on Android with "advanced" mode in my mobile preferences. Contribs are available at the page header of User: and User talk: pages, I can tap "read as a wiki page" to view and edit Wikipedia talk: conversations, and my typeface size has never increased outside a pinch zoom. I could see an Undo diff preview being uncomfortably long, but have never had a problem getting the screen to scroll. Folly Mox (talk) 17:18, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, I use Firefox on desktop but Chrome on phone. Perhaps I should try Firefox on the phone. PamD 18:08, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

You might find this page useful: User:Cullen328/Smartphone editing. I do a lot of editing while mobile (such as now!) and I find the desktop version of Vector 2010 to be the best interface for it. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 17:26, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I mean, maybe, and I'm not sure of any other high profile mobile editing user essays, but the takeaway from the linked essay (briefly: desktop view, landscape orientation) is the exact opposite to how I edit, and I get on fine. It's really up to personal preference (and Special:Preferences) except in some edge cases, like viewing navboxes or the source of a fully protected template. Folly Mox (talk) 03:22, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Mobile editing is terrible, but for me even mobile reading (Samsung Galaxy A50, Chrome) is nearly impossible since a few weeks. And then there are the strange things on Mobile view even when seen on a desktop. E.g. the right side of the translate box at the top of this is a clear "show", while the same in mobile view has a "show" which for some reason fades out to the right. The watchlist in mobile uses way, way too many lines (4 or 5 per entry for no good reason), where "thank" is a too big button and "rollback" is a lot smaller and without a border (on desktop view they are nicely aligned and formatted).

This is simply brilliant. Above the diff, it shows the legend: "Content added" in a blue box, "Content deleted" in a yellow box. Below, the actual diff, shows content added against a green background, and content removed against a red background. Phew, good thing I had the legend... Oh, but perhaps because I look at it in Wikitext and not in Visual? Er, no, when I make that switch, the added text is shown against some green-bluish hue, not the same as the "content added" box at all, and the removed line is no longer visible.

Editing? I can't edit a complete page in mobile, if I use the "edit" pencil at the top I only get the lead. E.g. swapping two sections is not possible (or at the very least not intuitive) this way. Doing this in desktop mode is straightforward. Doing all this also reminded me of one of the reasons why Visual Editing is such a pain in the ass. Changing a short description in wikitext is "click edit, change shortdesc, save". Doing this in VE is "click edit, scroll up (!), click short desc icon, click edit again but now at the bottom, change shortdesc, save, save again because you only "saved" the template change". Fram (talk) 19:19, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I use to edit using the mobile version on my phone a lot. ... no longer do so...instead I switch to desktop mode on my phone. There is a link at the very bottom of every page to change to desktop view and back. Moxy- 20:06, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

There's a script that will force the desktop version as well, useful if you're googling something and end up following a link back to Wikipedia. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 01:11, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

An "edit full page" option for mobile was added a few months ago, in the vertical ellipsis menu in the upper right, with the rest of the page tools. Swapping sections seems pretty identical (cut-paste). I don't see the same blue / yellow legend boxes in inline diff mode, which might be the result of a user preference. Folly Mox (talk) 03:18, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I get the exact same look when I log out, so not the result of a user preference. Fram (talk) 09:39, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

After checking the linked diff logged out in three separate browsers, I haven't been able to view the "content added" / "content removed" legend in either source or visual mode, so it doesn't seem like it's one of my user preferences either. Folly Mox (talk) 12:11, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Looks like the legend hides if your device is 1000px wide or smaller. Which may explain why it hasn't been noticed that MobileFrontend overrides MediaWiki core's diff colors but not the colors in the legend. Compare this desktop diff (again, in a browser with a width >1000px) where the legend and colors do match. Anomie⚔ 12:38, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Seconding the concern that editing pages on mobile in Firefox gives a bizarre situation where editing the entire article only gives you the lead section. I figure this might be some weird user preference but it always annoys me a lot. In general, the mobile editing experience leaves a lot to be desired, although I'll confess I do not have a lot of concrete suggestions. It does seem like the mobile website downplays the editor-created nature of the site a lot (i.e. history and the like are often hidden). jp×g🗯️ 08:46, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

JPxG, the edit pencil at the top of an article opens only the lead. "Edit full page" is collapsed inside the vertical ellipsis menu in the upper right, along with Special:WhatLinksHere, Special:PageInfo, et al. This is a recent change (feels like second two thirds of 2023; I'll see if I can find the date). Folly Mox (talk) 12:40, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

1 August, as part of MediaWiki 1.41/wmf.20, pursuant to phab:T203151, but apparently this option is only available if you enable "Advanced" mode in Special:MobileOptions. I think not having this mode enabled probably severely cripples the editing experience (link anchored to "1 August" above has the deets). Folly Mox (talk) 12:54, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Computer is fixed, so it doesn't really matter all that much anymore. I just couldn't deal with mobile diffs. DrowssapSMM 12:10, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Inline diffs can be um challenging to parse sometimes (scroll down in the linked mobile diff for the fun part). Folly Mox (talk) 13:57, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Displaying some Wikipedia mobile view anomaly

Screenshot added. Also note the ridiculously large footer (which extends further to the right than the actual page, poor layouting once again) Fram (talk) 12:23, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Illustrate a mobile view anomaly on Wikipedia

Another screenshot, showing the weird "show" (bottom right) fade out. Very artistic. Fram (talk) 12:28, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Separately from any issues with it, the mobile view has the appearance of something that is a decade or more out of date. I would hope the WMF are working to consolidate around one appearance that scales across devices and different screen sizes. Working on each separately at this point would be a waste of resources. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:45, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think I share that hope. Having one or more giant screen, with a keyboard + mouse input setup, and the ability to have multiple apps open in a single view, is a fundamentally different experience to a vertically oriented, cramped, "one app at a time", "long-press contextual menu instead of shortcut keys", "keyboard input necessarily occludes a non trivial portion of the screen" kinda situation.

Also there are pretty big differences in system resources. I really should replace my phone soon, but my device memory is such that even if most gadgets and userscripts were supported in Minerva I'd still disable them due to the overhead of loading all the javascript. I only enable Twinkle if I have to restore an old revision or AfD an article.

I'm sure that Minerva probably looks old and busted viewed full screen on a desktop monitor, but on a mobile device it does a good job giving the page contents most of the screen real estate and keeping the other elements out of the way until needed. Folly Mox (talk) 18:00, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Minerva probably looks old and busted viewed full screen on a desktop monitor – before Vector 2022, before even Wikiwand, I understand that how to switch to Wikipedia's "secret" mobile view periodically made the rounds on social media. Reportedly, people thought it was easier to read. It's not my own personal favorite, but that doesn't mean those people are wrong. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:02, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

It's altogether possible that what looks "fine and normal" to me actually looks a decade or more out of date to younger eyes. That probably applies to most of the things I own and uh me. Folly Mox (talk) 23:21, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Central banner for a Commons contest to photograph the culinary diversity of Bengal

A photographic contest is going to happen from 15th January, 2024 to 14th February 2024 on Wikimedia Commons to enrich the photographic content Bengali culinary diversity and a central notice request has been placed to target English Wikipedia users including non-registered ones from Bangladesh and the Indian states of West Bengal, Tripura, Assam, Sikkim and Jharkhand. Thanks. -- Bodhisattwa (talk) 06:33, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Edit summary spam

I'm sure this must be a perennial chestnut but what's the best way to handle edit summary spam? I see an increasing number of edits like this which commit trivial vandalism, a dummy edit or even a minor improvement but their main effect and likely purpose is to pollute the page history permanently with a commercial break. They generally do not qualify for revdel. Do we simply ignore them per WP:DENY? Certes (talk) 12:55, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

@Certes revert, block as needed. If there is some excessive amount, no one is going to care if an admin revdel's them via RD5 embracing DELREASON 4. I wouldn't bother chasing after single ones for such revdel, same as we wouldn't bother chasing after revdeling spam in the page text. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:01, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, if there become some recurring pattern - we can try to prevent them with abusefilters. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:01, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I think it's worth remembering how few people actually look at the edit summaries, especially if it's not the edit at the top of the list.

That IP range has made a lot of contributions, and most of them don't have an edit summary at all. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:34, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Mass revdel does make that a lot easier for those up for the task. I'd definitely take the time if the edit summaries include links, I do that for user creation logs when I block promotional usernames. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:07, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

change the description of an article

I entered the word "Triptych" and one of the possibilities that popped up was "Triptychs by Francis Bacon" with a note that they were painted between 1994 and 1986. I looked; that should be "between 1944 and 1986." How can this be fixed? J S Ayer (talk) 04:43, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Simply edit the {{short description}} template, which is probably near the top of the page. Mach61 (talk) 05:13, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

@J S Ayer, it looks like that's the result of a simple accidental typo. You can see the edit that caused it here. You can fix it yourself, or you can ask Ffffrr to fix it. We all make mistakes occasionally, and it really helps if other people are willing to look out for the accidents and help fix them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:36, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! Never ran into that one before! J S Ayer (talk) 06:01, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for correcting the error. Ffffrr (talk) 11:52, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Third RfC on Vector 2022

• Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Evaluation of Vector 2022 is open.

Æo (talk) 21:43, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to globally ban Guido den Broeder

Hi, this is to let you all know that there is a proposal to ban User:Guido den Broeder at m:Requests for comment/Global ban for Guido den Broeder. You are receiving this notification as Guido den Broeder has made at least one edit to this wiki as per the m:Global bans policy. Best, --SHB2000 (talk) 05:48, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

What to do when editors don't agree

Please see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/When there is no consensus either way and share your advice. Specifically, if editors genuinely can't agree one whether to include or exclude a fact in a given article, what principles or processes should they follow? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:11, 15 January 2024 (UTC)