Template talk:Genocide sidebar

LGV Reversion

The current state of the Template:Genocide sidebar is excessively egregious, it omits mention of numerous genocides significant in number and notoriety to a mere 'footnote' at the bottom of the page questioning the veracity of its genocidal nature (Holodomor). Naturally, as POV pushing has assumed high priority and Soviet genocides have been relegated to the 'dust bins of history', those genocides that are arguably less well known, more questionable as genocides and less significant in number still keep a key position on the sidebar. For example how is it that Nazi Crimes Against the Polish Nation committed during the context of war, outmanoeuvres the inclusion of the ethnic cleansing of Poles in the Soviet Union during a time of peace and for no reasons other than to remove them. How is it that the Cambodian Genocide orchestrated by Paul Pot who belonged to the same nation he exterminated is kept in the genocide sidebar but the Holodomor is left only to a brief mention literally at the bottom of the page, and instead of a link to the genocide itself a slap in the face to the victims by a link only to the 'question' of whether it occurred. These brutal and arguably far more genocidal events cannot be outcasted while population transfers and ancient crusades are kept. The version I motion and hope to restore had provenance of months and its 1,039 characters removed in an edit in May of 2020 with a referral to 'per discussion at Template talk:Genocide'. There was no discussion, at least not a bilateral one, according to the Oxford Dictionary, a discussion connotes a verbal transaction between two or more people, this did not occur and hence WP:CONACHIEVE was not achieved.Η γνώση είναι δύναμη123 (talk) 15:01, 7 March 2021 (UTC)Η γνώση είναι δύναμη123

Restoring Portion of Sidebar to LSV and Mentioning Events Inalienable to the Discussion of Genocide and Examples of it in History

On the 9th of May 2020, an edit was made to remove the entire section of Soviet Genocide from the Template:Genocide sidebar this was done without any consensus and removed a sizeable portion of a version that had been been there for dozens of months. In the Soviet Union, there was the strategic elimination and removal of Polish, Greek and Latvian communities through violence, the Holodomor was conducted by forced grain requisition squads whilst the Potato Famine happened because the infection of potatos. No country recognises the Irish Potato Famine as a genocide, numerous countries especially within the EU recognise the suffering of the Polish, Latvian and Greek communities of the USSR and more than 15 including the majority of Western democracies consider the Holodomor as a genocide, unbelievably some countries included in the current version of this sidebar are recognised by one state as a genocide. These deserve to be mentioned and were mentioned for many months before being removed in an edit without consensus. I hope to return the page to the version made before the edit of the 9th of May 2020, in a diplomatic way and look forward to working in a proactive way with those concerned.Η γνώση είναι δύναμη123 (talk) 14:54, 9 March 2021 (UTC)Η γνώση είναι δύναμη123

• That's why we look at scholarly sources rather than political decisions. Political decisions are influenced by many factors, of which (being generous) historical accuracy is only one, if indeed it's considered at all. In scholarly sources there is no agreement that Holodomor was a genocide. I will quote just one example to disprove your ridiculous claim that no one is comparing Holodomor to other famines:

  Stalin’s intentions and actions during the Ukrainian famine, no matter what sensationalist claims are made by nationalists and anti-Communists, were not the extermination of the Ukrainian people but were related perversely to the collectivization campaign, the destruction of any form of resistance to the dictates of the ruling party, and the absurdly high targets for requisitioning grain. Incompetence and callousness were as much culprits as fear of potential resistance, anger at the failure to deliver grain, and deep-seated hostility toward peasants and nationalists.5 Like the Irish Famine of 1845–1852, the Bengal Famine of 1943, and the Chinese Famine of 1958–1961, so in Ukraine the government was culpable in the deaths of millions.

  (t · c) buidhe 17:39, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

That source is not about the Holodomor though and I don't see anywhere in that quote where it refers to the question of genocide. Volunteer Marek 17:43, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

More generally, the events you are removing are most certainly described as genocides in numerous sources. For some, like the Holodomor where there's lots of controversy perhaps a note should be added, but since the purpose of the template is to direct potential readers to articles related to the topic, all of these belong in there. Volunteer Marek 17:47, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Buidhe. An infobox of this kind is intended to ease the reader's navigation around related articles - it is not intended to provide a definitive statement of evemts which have been labelled "genocides". Anything else might appear an endorsement of a particular point of view or stray into WP:FRINGE. Better to have a smaller and more focused list in my opinion. —Brigade Piron (talk) 17:55, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Your stated rationale actually supports my and other editor's edits, not Buidhe's, and restoring these events to the template. Including them is exactly what eases reader's navigation around the topic - I 100% agree with you here. There's no indication that these are endorsements.

Also, most of these ARE in fact described as "genocides" in sources.

Buidhe, yelling "ONUS" while edit warring and trying to force your way in a dispute is not exactly productive editing. In particular claiming "WP:ONUS" in this particular dispute, concerning a template is out of place. "WP:ONUS!!!" is not suppose to be a way to justify any and all reversions of information. By invoking ONUS you are acknowledging that these events ARE indeed described as genocides in the sources. If this was an article on genocides then I guess I could kind of see how there's some reason why these would be excluded due to WP:DUE (though no, I really couldn't see that either). But this is a template. If events are described as genocides in sources or are directly related to the question of what is a genocide then very obviously they should be included. Volunteer Marek 18:11, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree with VM. I think at the very least Holodomor and Uyghur genocide being restored as genocides on the sidebar since they are definitely large scale enough. Oranjelo100 (talk) 15:31, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Seriously, is this a joke? The Uyghur persecution is comparable to the Holodomor? Millions died in the latter, there isn't even a death statistic for the former. For the sake of not minimizing these horrendous events, the Uyghur link should be placed on the bottom of the sidebar, and not next to actual massacres such as by ISIS and against the Rohingya. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:74C3:41AE:6B1B:FB6A (talk) 00:23, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

What would be useful is taking out some general books about genocide, and seeing which events are commonly and consistently described as genocide which would then have due weight for inclusion in a template which is supposed to be about genocide generally, and can't possibly include every event that someone has called a genocide. One review of six such books (10.1017/S004388710002089X) even has a handy table which could serve as a starting point. The Holodomor is indeed commonly described as a genocide but not consistently as such, since there is considerable academic disagreement that it is in fact a genocide. I find your misrepresentations of my position to be laughable and not worth replying to. (t · c) buidhe 00:48, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

I wasn't addressing you, but Oranjelo.... 2601:85:C101:C9D0:74C3:41AE:6B1B:FB6A (talk) 01:03, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 April 2021

If what happens to the Uyghurs is qualified as genocide, then the "atrocities" during the Congo Free State surely need to be classified as genocide in this table listing genocides, it is certainly much more appropriate to this case than to the policy of internment and political indoctrination that the Uyghur population is subjected to, whose qualification as "genocide" is debatable. 176.139.81.223 (talk) 17:39, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:51, 22 April 2021 (UTC)